Republican Re Election Bumper Stickers

airbarton, no offense taken, i guess you are a libertarian. i agree with you that it would be nice to eliminate many of the departments that you name (perhaps not all of them though). however, you must also realize that this will never happen.

so back in the real world, i will vote and support those who at least say that they want me to decide what to do with my money (reps) vs those who think they can do a better job with my money (dems).

 

Art I think public education is a joke! School should be run by private companies not the government. I am sure you will come back with the same old argument that we need to educate people to keep them off the street but once again all you need to do is look back at history to see this is not working. Besides, why should I have to be responsible for other peoples children. I waited until I could afford them before I had them why can't everyone else be as responsible as me. If you can't afford to pay to educate your kids you should not have them. If I can't afford to feed them or clothe them should I have them? Why is educating them any different?

 

Ross the only reason it will not happen is because no one has the guts to make it happen. I don't know how many times I've heard my Republican friends say "I love what the Lib's stand for I am just affraid I will waste my vote" IMHO they are wasting thier vote. They don't realize just how many people out there say the same thing!

 

Art I would also like to add that responsible people like me get screwed in this whole deal. Not only do I have to pay for my kids to go to private school I also have to pay for everyone elses kids too. Remember that my kids are not a burden to the public school system but I still have to pay for the system anyway. I end up paying twice as much to educate my kids as I should have too. If you love the public schools so much you pay for them and leave me out of it, I am doing just fine on my own! BTW no offense Art. I do love these disscusions and respect the fact that you are willing to stand up for what you believe in as I do.

 

If you own a business that needs to employ people who are reasonably educated, you should realize that it is to your benefit to pay for the public school system, and the best one they can create.

This is but one of dozens of reasons why an educated population benefits all (even those at the top), and why all should pay for it.

I mean, what would you say to people who say they don't drive and therefore shouldn't have to pay for road maintenance? You'd tell them that everything in their refridgerator gets transported on those roads and therefore they need them as much as anyone, right?

 

My family just happens to employ about 250 people and I still contend we do not need public schools. We supposedly live in a free market system in the U.S. if you refer back to your study of basic economics you will find out why your statement does not fly. Also I just said I realize there are some things we need the government for, just not everything. No offense!

 

Guys I am enjoying this conversation very much but I need to meet someone at my other house. I would love to continue this though so I hope you guys will check this thread later this evening.

 

Hey, I'm no huge champion of the public school system as it currently exists. My daughter (5) goes to public school because, well, because she's 5. My older son does home school and so in a way, I'm paying for public school through taxes and not using it personally.

The problem is making a transition. If we move to a voucher system, kids would drop out and go to private schools, but the private schools could not expand fast enough to take them all, meaning many kids would be stuck at public schools that are total chaos. Maybe we ought to start it at kindergarten age only, so that no kids are jumping out of public to private, and therefore the transition would happen smoothly. And perhaps we'd have all private schools in a generation or so.

I would only support this if there was some way to keep enough schools that did not charge more than we currently spend per student for public schools ($6800 national average). My fear is that once it's all private, tuition will explode like private university tuition has in the last 10 years. And though many of us can afford four years of ivy league for our kids, fewer of us want to think of paying that for 17 years.

But is this going to have any effect on taxes? I mean, if people are getting vouchers, the money has to come from somewhere. I don't think most people could afford to pay the $7k per each kid for the cheapest private schools if there were no vouchers or they won't receiving that in a tax credit of some kind. Hmm...

 

Sorry it took me so long to get back but my meeting took longer than I anticipated. Back to the subject. I see what you are saying Slim but in a sense it would effect taxes since you would at least be getting a refund against some of what you paid in. Your personal tax expenditure would effectively be lower. That is not to say that I am advocating vouchers though I do see that as a good possibility. I realize this would be a difficult problem to solve. The fact is though we can't just ignore our mistake. It may have seemed like a good idea when it all started but we need to just realize we made a mistake and fix it. That is what most reasonable people do when they screw up. I actually think you are on the right track with the solutions you have suggested. At least you are thinking about it and are trying to come up with a solution. Most people choose to ignore the problem and hope it will just go away. I would like to make sure you understand were I am coming from. I am not one of those people that think we should do away with the government all together. To me that is just to much of an all or nothing type attitude. I think both sides of this argument have some merit and that the answer lies somewhere in between these two sides. In other words I think there are some things the government is well suited for and other things they are not. I think even you could agree that they are envolved in way too much. I also think we both want the same thing we just differ on how to go about it.

 

I forgot to mention that a lot of what bugs me about the way things are is not that some of these programs exist, its how they get paid for. Why is it that some here think it is ok for me to have to pay more than someone else for these things. If you really want to be fair, everyone needs to pay the same. I'll give you an example and this may be part of why I am so pissed. I just sold one of my condo's that I bought with money I earned on my own with no help from the government or anyone else. Because of this stupid capital gains crap I was forced to set aside $40K of my money to pay the government thier cut. Why should they be entiteld to any of my deal. I earned that money on my own and it belongs to me no one else is entitled to the fruits of my labor unless I want to give it to them. It is as good as if they stole it from me!

 

I hate to do this again but my tennis partner just walked in the door so I must sign off again. If you want to continue this though I'll check back when I am through.

 

Tip: You can edit your annotations. Unless your evil plan is to increase post count.

Like this, for example.

Or this.

Or this.

 

I think the argument is that the government provided the environment in which you could make a profit and so they are taking their cut (what's the max now? 18% for the higher brackets, right?).

You know, didn't the government maintain the streets that take people to the property and otherwise make the community attractive enough that someone would want to live there and buy the place from you? Didn't the government provide police and fire protection for your property and protect your borders from foreign invasion and so on...? Did you not get various deductions from your taxes in the years you owned the property?

I'm not saying the capital gains tax is fair or the best way to pay for things. But the fact is that these services we receive cost money. And so does a lot of other stuff. I don't know who else you expect to pay for them other than yourself (especially now that corporations are now paying only 7% of revenues, down from what used to be more like 20%: source of those numbers was a documentary showing an irs guy describing the lease-in-lease-out schemes and other "loopholes" used to avoid corporate tax).

Taking a capital gains tax is the way the elected officials of this country have decided to get that payment from you. I'm sure there are lots of other ways but so far none have gained momentum enough to reform the tax codes (17,000 pages of mess). Yeah, maybe you paid more in tax than you got in obvious benefit and so some of your tax money went to pay for things like public schools and health care and job training or temporary welfare or whatever: you know, the things that keep a lot of people from breaking into your condo and stealing your stuff.

I know it's fashionable to complain about paying taxes, but I guess I just pay them and consider it a cost of doing business and living here in California. I have a feeling I'm going to pay tons for 2004 and be complaining about it this time next year. But hey, I'd rather be in a position to pay a lot of tax than be poor and pay nothing!

 

sorry Slim I still don't buy it as I already pay for all of the things you mentioned out of the income tax they take out of my pay check. My point is where does this all end? They say they want us to build wealth and prosper but at the same time when I do that they take it away from me. I think they should make up thier mind. That $40k would still get taxed anyway when I spend it via sales tax. How many taxes do I have to endure before they will be satisfied? I am to the point where I am just going to take my money else where from now on so they don't even know it exsists. Believe me when I tell you I pay more than my fair share with all of these other taxes. They don't need to take a portion of my good deals on top of it! It is just disincentive for being successful! On top of that, when we die and turn all of this over to our kids, they will loose a considerable amount of what we have built over the years. Why should anybody be entitled to a dime of that just because it changed hands? It boils down to this, they had to come up with more and more ways over the years to pay for all the bull they created. At what point do we say enough is enough?

 

BTW the thing that keeps people from breaking into my condo's or my house for that matter is private security that we pay for not public police! If I had to depend on the cops to keep people out of my house, I would have been cleaned out a long time ago. All they do is come in and write reports after the fact. It is interesting to note also that if all this educating and welfareing were so effective, I would not need to worry about it at all would I. We would have all these educated happy people that don't need to steal or at least thats what you guys have been telling me. I do appreciate the help making my case for me! Oh and one more thing, give it time, at this rate you will be poor and paying no taxes!

 

Here's something to keep in mind:

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, PROMOTE THE GENERAL WELFARE, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

I can understand people who say they want to promote the general welfare of the entire nation and all of its people, but just disagree on what the best way to do that is. But it's sad how often I hear people say they just don't care about anyone else if it's going to cost them a few bucks.

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btw, back to the capital gains issue: why is having to give 18% of a profit to the government a disincentive to make a good deal? After all, if you really paid $40k in capital gains tax, that means you pocketed the other $160k profit on the deal right? The average person works full time for years to make that much. I know it sucks to pay that tax but look on the bright side sometimes. Fewer ulcers that way, ha!

Also, by 2009, your heirs will get $3.5 mil tax free and tax will be due at 45% on whatever above that $3.5mil you leave that you didn't have sheltered in some other way. If you're going to run into that, there are plenty of lawyers and estate planners out there to set you up with tax avoidance strategies.

 

Good morning gentlemen it's good to be back. Now let's get down to bussiness. First of all I would like to say to Art that I think you should pay better attention to the conversation (no offense) I already said that I more than paid for all of these services out of my income tax so I don't buy your first statement. Second, This old let's educate our population and they will not turn out to be criminals crap is just not going to fly. I also said that all one need do is look back over our history to see that this is not true. If it were we would have made some progress by now and by your own admission, we haven't. 3rd, I also said that I want the same things you do, that I already help people that can't help themselves as many of the people I know do. I am saying once again thet I nor my friends do not need the government to do this for us. I think you are just lazy Art and want someone else to do the work for you (no offense). Lastly, the reason neither party will eliminate these things is becase they will loose constiuants. You and I both know money is thier power base and lets face it, if you were poor and discovered that you can vote for someone that will make the rich pay for everything, you would. Now I have to go back over to my other house and pay the carpet cleaners but I will be back to address Slims comments.

 

Ok I'm back, sorry for the interuption. Slim I am starting to wonder if you guys are actually hearing what I am saying. I am going to say it again. I realize there are some things we need the government for! I am not against paying for things like defense, roads, ect. It is the level of this stuff and how it gets paid for that I object too. I don't care what anyone says, it is not fair to ask one person to pay more for these things than someone else period! This whole preamble thing you said gave me a chuckle. I am sure our fore fathers did not envision a country that would turn into a welfare state. It is common knowledge that they were trying to secure freedom for themselves and thier children, and ensure human rights. They wanted the government to have as little envolvement as possible in thier lives not run thier lives. I think you should go back and do a review of your american history books or something (no offense). It is prcisely thier ideals I would like to see this country return too! Once again I apreciate the help in making my case for me. BTW I do already have estate planning lawyers. The fact is the government should not be able to get one penny of my childrens inheritance reguardless of how big it is!!!!! Now I want to make sure you guys are clear on were I stand. The government is too big, it is ok to have taxes just not as many as we have, I want our people to be educated but I want them to do this on thier own just like we do, I want everyone to pay equally for government services, and I do not want to be forced to be charitable as I already am. Is there anything about this you guys don't get? If so let me know and I will respond as soon as I get back from my lunch meeting. BTW Art it's good to talk to you again how have you been?

 

Art I might concede the school thing but there is still the issue as to how and who should pay for it. Also I assure you we can do without a lot of the things we have in place now. That aside, how was your trip?

 

Sounds like you had a good time. Glad you got back safe!

 

Not meant as a political statement, just something I noticed:
http://andymatic.com/archives/001694.html

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blpic-kerrymunster.htm

 

Now that's funny!