Republican Re Election Bumper Stickers

I don't care what any individual does or doesn't do with their money. I'm sure Kerry and Kennedy would pay whatever taxes are levied on them, after they've exploited the system to avoid what they can: just as any of us would. But even if they'd don't, I'm not going to be one to whine and say I'm not paying because so and so didn't or doesn't want to.

One of these days we need to just realize that there is a major philosophical divide between people like me (is that "liberal"? certainly more liberal than the democrats) and the conservatives. I'll have to write it all out but I believe it basically boils down to something like this.

At least some conservatives see the role of government being to preserve a society in which everyone can battle it out for supremacy, getting whatever their talents (and built in advantages since we aren't starting over at equal) will get them. They draw some lines on what behavior is allowed in the contest, saying murder and outright theft is not allowed for example, while being a bit more loose on things that only contribute to death or suffering but don't have a 100% connection. They feel no responsibility to provide a good life for those who can't win the game.

Folks like me, and there are millions, believe that the role of a government is to provide a society that functions for all and creates at least a certain minimum level of well being for every citizen, including (to the horror of Tifosi69-like conservatives) the stupid, the weak, the lazy, the sick, and the unlucky. Government should also create a level playing field when it comes to race, sex, and sexual preference. It should also attempting to create something approaching a level playing field financially by minimize the headstart some have: I'm not going to go as far as wanting to redistribute all wealth to make a true level playing field, but want to at least make an attempt to not get any worse than the division of wealth currently is: therefore, 50% death tax of remaining assets over $3.5 mil at death sounds perfectly acceptable to me. I can't imagine ever *needing* to receive more tax free money than that to build a life with, though I can imagine someone needing a bowl of soup or an immunization shot that that extra money would fund. I may ***** about the way the government distributes my money and the tremendous waste between my tax check and that bowl of soup, but I do not ***** about the concept or desire itself. [note on government waste: if the rich get to claim that it's ok to own a million dollar boat because it employed a lot of people to build it, then we ought make the same argument about government bureaucratic waste - that it employs lots of people and therefore isn't really "waste": and in the case of our bureacratic waste, at least we're pretty sure those involved are Americans - can't say that for boat builders.]

Once everyone is well fed and well educated and healthy, we can fight it out for the rest. And since we are a tremendously productive society, there will be plenty left to fight over. If my vision of government means that when I get Paul Allen's wealth that I'll only be able to afford one helicopter for my boat instead of two because the other funds went to feed some kids that have a deadbeat dad, then big deal. I can live with it. Guys, it's not that big of a sacrafice and I know I'd feel better about my wealth if I know everyone else is eating tonight.

-Slim

 

I know I said I was done with this conversation but after reading Slims post I think I am going to puke! I absolutely can't believe I read what I just read! Slim, I am really going to give up on you at this point because now I am totally sure you just don't get it! Before I go though I feel compelled to respond one more time because I want to make sure there is no misunderstanding about were I stand.

1st of all Slim, sure ****happens but why is it when it happens to us no one comes to our rescue!

2nd, I am not complaining about the existance of people less fortunate than I nor am I insulting them, if the shoe fits were it as they say!

3rd, your comment about helping to pay for thier education so they will not rob us is the single stupidest thing I have ever heard. I was poor at one time myself and never even considered robbing someone to get what I needed. What does that tell you about a persons character. Basically what you are saying is we need to pay them in cash for good behavior! I would much rather spend my money locking them up as they are going to be criminals no matter what!

4th, I commend you for your personal commitment to your kids, unfortunately you are in the minority.

5th, I think you totally missed the point about kicking in. I already said I don't mind paying my fair share which means we all pay equally. That rediculous argument that the rich should pay because they have it, is exactly why this debate exsists in the first place. Once again I will say, this is a free country. In case you forgot, that means we all have the right to become millions if we so desire and we all have the right to be philanthropists as well. I DO NOT NEED THE GOVERNMENT TO DO THIS FOR ME, I CAN DO IT JUST FINE ON MY OWN! I think you are just lazy and want someone else to do your work for you. I can do more good with my charities in one weekend than you and your party can do in a month! I could do even more if your bone head party would stop taking all my money!

6th, I pay for every single benifit I get from this society 3 times over as well as contributing to it by other means. If you recall, which at this point I'm not sure you can, I pay income tax, property tax, sales tax, social security, ect, ect, ect. How many more taxes do I have to endure before you and your party are going to be satisfied that we have paid our fair share!

7th, I guess this comment of yours is a clear statement as to your character, you said, "I'm sure Kerry and Kennedy would pay whatever taxes are levied on them, after they've exploited the system to avoid what they can: just as any of us would." speak for yourself Slim! I would appreciate it if you would not include me in with those that think it is ok to exploit the system for thier own gain! I do honest bussiness, I follow the rules, and I do more than my fair share to make our community a better place! I think the saying goes "put up or shut up" sounds like Kerry and the Kennedys have no idea what that means and I guess niether do you!

8th, I can see niether you our the Democrats understand what the true role of the government should be and that is why we have the mess we do. All of the wonderful level playing field crap you mentioned has been done, and is done every day without any help from the government whatsoever. Don't give me that line of bull that these poltitians have some sort of noble intentions in all of this taxation. They have only one intention and that is to increase thier power base. They do not care one lick what happens to the guy in the street so do me a favor and save it for someone as naive as yourself!

Lastly, your final comment says it all. You feel guilty about being so succesful and that is why you subscribe to the Democrats view of how it should be. Do us all a favor and keep your guilt to yourself so the rest of us can go about the bussiness of restoring this country to it's former glory! I'm done now hope you enjoyed the rant!

 

I could not have said it better !!

 

Thank you!

 

I am no tax attorney but that sounds like BS to me Art. First of all, there already is a wealthy ruling class, isn't that the argument you dems use when talking about the "rich" not paying their fair share and the why Martha Stewart and others should not be able to use their money and connections to avoid penalties that others cannot avoid? 100 % tax, that's very SOCIALIST of you, you know the taxes have been paid over and over and over again in a myriad of ways before someone dies and taxing it again is NOTHING more than a slap in the face of someone's family and a shakedown by Uncle Sammy (the Bull). I personally know of a family that had to sell their family business that was an institution in their area for over 50 years in order to pay estate taxes because the patriarch did not adequately insure his life so they had to sell everything! If you think that is RIGHT, let alone FAIR, then with all due respect Art you have a screw loose. If the estate tax laws are not anything more than a NAKED attempt by the government to STEAL, then explain why estates under $600,000 (or did they change now to 800k, I admit I am not sure) exempt from the tax? It is a pure and simple REDISTRIBUTION pogram...oops, I meant to say program, straight out of Leningrad. And your "little rich kids" comment speaks volumes to your hypocrisy. Some of the LOUDEST on the left are exactly what you claim to despise (Teddy "Jake and the Fatman" Kennedy, along with that entire worthless clan, sit atop net worths in the 8,9 and 10 figure ranges, left to them by their criminal father. If you do not think there is a wealthy ruling Klass, ask someone who resides in Mass. about their thoughts on "Camelot" and "America's Royal Family") Taxes SHOULD be avoided at the end of someone's life because they paid THROUGHOUT their life and you know it.

 

So Art, in your world it is up to YOU to decide all a family NEEDS is $5 million and EVERY PENNY over that should go to the government? That is what you posted. Regardless of how it was earned, taxes have been paid many times on those assets and/or cash. Well Art, I think you might have just lost a lot of the people that have been agreeing with you up until now because you just showed yourself to be a true-red socialist. I don't know of many people on this board who hold their loved ones in so little regard that they would rather see a lifetime of work go to supporting a bunch of miscreants and unfettered breeders, rather than to those they love. I am sure that is a true statement regardless of someone's political leanings. I'm in the real estate business and deal with investors that rent properties to mostly Section 8 tenants. If you do not think our government and your FDR-inspired "greatest President" give-aways inspire malfeasance, read up on Section 8. The more kids they have, the larger house they qualify for and the government pays an even higher voucher amount for them. I don't know about you but the Fed doesn't pay my mortgage, and if my wife and I want a bigger house we have to go buy it ourselves, imagine that. Now I suppose I could just quit working, keep her perpetually knocked up and we could qualify for a 10,000 square foot estate. That is where your money goes ladies and gentleman. The same goes for WIC, Food Stamps and many other entitlements. They give out condoms in the schools and yet they REWARD breeding with larger monthly checks. To support that someone should work all their lives, build something, and then NOT be able to posthumously decide WHERE their money should go? Sounds, dare I say, COMMUNIST to me.

 

Tifosi,

A Republican president asked congress for the estate tax (T. Rosevelt) because he saw that the super rich families could create a class of US roylty (Vanderbilts, Morgans, Du Point, etc.). AND for the most part there was NO TAXES (we are talking Federal Income tax remember) paid on the accumulation of that wealth.

Congress has recently upped the threshold before any taxes kick in ($1.5M?) then the receiptiants of the estate are taxed just as though they had won it in the lottery.

You seem to constantly complain about paying taxes (sales, property, state, excise, and federal income) What is your solution?

 

It makes no difference who asked for this stupid tax. It was a bad idea then and it is a bad idea now. The argument that it is ok to try to prevent the rise of a class of royals is no longer relavent. Every single American has the right to try to build and empire if they so desire. That is the whole point of this country. I personally would be getting there a lot faster if you guys would quit trying to take all my money! I am not rich, I am trying to get that way. I would probably already be rich if there weren't so damn many taxes!

 

Art I must respond to this comment. "My plan would allow those capable of earning money to keep more of it, and make sure that the rich don't live off their ancestor's abilities. It's called social darwinism." Give me a break Art. What my kids do with the money I leave them is no ones bussiness. I just happen to be raising them right so they are not the selfish snobs you want to portray them as. I am trying like hell to see to it that I leave them a fortune because I know not only am I passing on money to them, I am also passing on the values that will make them far more responsible citizens than most Democrats I know! I would appreciate it if the democrats would leave it up to me to determine what is best for them and what is not. This is so damn typical of the Democrats, "we know what's best for you better than you do". Art you know I have great respect for you personally but statements like that are just plain bull. BTW I appreciate the fact that the Democrats are willing to allow me to keep more of MY money!

 

Those people still exist today and their net worths have still grown exponentially so that does not hold water

WTF are you talking about? You and Art keep saying NO taxes were paid and that simply is UNTRUE! Are you meaning to say no taxes were paid by the BENEFICIARIES of the estate? OK, but so what? When your father earned the money it was taxed, then when he made investments with the money it was taxed, then when he bought something with the money there were taxes levied and so on and so on. What is your point? To say NO TAXES were paid is plain crazy.

My solution is a FLAT imcome tax system. And if you do not think the Federal tax code is a wealth redistribution program pure and simple, then explain to me why there are taxes such as the "luxury" tax on the books? The dems think think their job is to play Robin Hood and PENALIZE success.

 

I like the Robin Hood thing! That is a good analogy.

 

<<WTF are you talking about? You and Art keep saying NO taxes were paid and that simply is UNTRUE! Are you meaning to say no taxes were paid by the BENEFICIARIES of the estate? OK, but so what? When your father earned the money it was taxed, then when he made investments with the money it was taxed, then when he bought something with the money there were taxes levied and so on and so on. What is your point? To say NO TAXES were paid is plain crazy.>>

Tifosi,

let me try to walk you through this with a simple example.

A man buys stock in a company for $20,000. The $20,000 had been taxed. The stock goes up in value and is now worth $2M. He dies and leaves his stock to his 19 year old girl friend. She gets a $2M windfall (sorta like the lottery) and under the current system would be taxed on $500,000 of it (maybe $200,000). If there is no estate tax, then there would have been NO tax paid for the $2M minus the initial investment of $20,000.

Bob

 

Tifosi, if it's that big of deal to you, just don't die until 2010. Your estate will not be taxed at all regardless of size.

 

Bob C. -- Are you sure about your example? I believe either: 1) the stock would be sold upon the man's death, and taxes taken, with the balance going to the girlfriend or 2) even if the girlfriend somehow got the actual stock certificates from probate, when she sold them she'd be taxed on the gain -- yes/no?

 

I'm not an attorney, nor a CPA, but I'm probating my father's estate right now and this is my understanding: no tax would be paid on the stocks or proceeds. If the stocks were listed with the girlfriend as beneficiary, she would receive them as a gift and pay no tax. If the beneficiary was simply the estate, they would be liquidated and the cash go to the heir tax free.

There will be tax due on any gains made from the date of death towards the future of course. I also believe the cost basis of property is stepped up to the FMV at time of death: so, for example, if the guy had bought a house for $100k that was worth $1mil when it passed to the heir and the heir kept if for five years and it was then worth $1.2mil and she sold it, she would pay tax on the $200k gain, not the $1.1mil gain (or pay nothing if she lived there I guess). These rules may be changing somewhat in the next few years.

IRAs are different because they were set up with pre-tax money. So the estate/heirs will have to pay tax on them. I believe the premature withdrawl penalties are waved however (i.e. you don't pay the extra 10%). A spouse may space the IRA distributions out over 5 years if they want.

 

Art, you don't know a ******* thing about me so don't talk about me. My father hasn't, with the exception of an education, given me a thing, nor should he, nor should he have too, nor do I feel entitled to it, BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, I built my business from the ground up on my own. I am not IBM or Microsoft, but I did it myself. I did not bring up estate taxes, airbarton did, I just replied to the FACT that they are a joke and a legalized way to STEAL. Who the hell are you to say $5 million is sufficient? WTF. That comment alone is the epitome of arrogance. I guess it should be up to you, John Kerry, Hitlary et al. to decide for us ignorant people out there what we need and how much and for how long. That's like saying to someone "I know what's best for you and your children and you love them too much, why do you need to leave them your $xxx million dollar estate, don't you know those dollars would be put to better use in government's hand? Give me a break.

 

And the belief that it isn't sufficient is the epitome of greed. How can you want, want, want when so many have nothing? Sure, maybe it's not your fault they have nothing but they have needs none the less.

If government isn't the best way to help people, then let's argue about what is. But you guys continue to sound like you just don't care about anyone but your own family. And if that's true, then you're right: I don't get it.

 

Thanks for the comments Slim -- that does seem a little unfair (but so are a lot of things). I don't have any children so my philosophy is: if you didn't spend it all, you messed up .

 

I think you completly missed the point! So what if his stock went from $20K to $2M! How many times does tax have to be paid on something before you will be satisfied it's been taxed enough. Besides, by your logic if the stock went down from $20K to -$2M the government would owe her money but of course all they will do is offer a tax deduction as if that would be some sort of consolation. Also, if they would quit spending so much money they would easily be able to pay for the stuff we need out of all the other taxes you geniuses think we should have. Why is this so difficult to see, THIS IS A FREE COUNTRY AND EVERYONE HAS THE RIGHT TO BUILD A DYNASTY IF THEY SEE FIT TO DO SO PERIOD! That is the whole point of living in America. I think you guys should relocate to a socialist country some where if you feel the need to have the government do everything for you and leave this one to thoses of us that know how to take care of ourselves! BTW the money I leave behind to my loved ones is not like the lottery, it is thier birthright, and it is my right to give it to whoever I please. It is not the place of the government in a free society to determine where my money goes while I am alive so I am sure they can manage to apply that same concept to MY money after I am gone! Give me a break!

 

Slim once again you are not paying attention to the conversation. How many times do I have to say this. I DON'T NEED THE GOVERNMENT TO DO MY CHARITY WORK FOR ME! I CAN DO MORE GOOD IN ONE WEEKEND WITH MY CHARITIES THAN YOUR PARTY CAN DO IN A MONTH, AND I COULD DO EVEN MORE IF YOUR PARTY WOULD QUIT TAKING ALL MY MONEY! I don't think this is all that difficult to see, but maybe it is. It is not the role of the government to take care of everybody. That view is for lazy people that do not want to do the work themselves. The government is the single most inept entity I can think of to do philanthropy work. What is with you people! I think you are the selfish greedy ones. You want to spend everyone elses money and let everyone else spend thier time doing this kind of work so you can sit around on your fat ass and feel like you did something just because you voted for it! You sir are the single most clueless individual I think I have ever encountered. The least you could do is pay attention to what is being said here so I don't have to constantly keep repeating myself!