Hello fellow enthusiasts, Long. long, long time lurker, first time poster. I have always enjoyed reading all the information shared on this site. I have had the privilege of owning and still owning some very nice vehicles in the past years. I therefore thought that maybe now would be a good time to start my relationship with the famous prancing horse. Of course, opportunity came knocking and that is why I am writing. I recently moved from Boca Raton to the panhandle area. Here of all places I came across a great first Ferrari. It is a 328 GTS in blue with light tan, almost white interior. The problem is the following. Due to the area, there is no way to find anyone qualified to do a good PPI. The place selling the car is truly the only one able to work on it. I have the VIN (listed below) and checked the Carfax which came out clean. It is a 1986 with just under 35K miles. I like the fact that it was driven. It has almost all the records going back to day one. All places of service have been authorized dealers. Among them are Shelton Ferrari in Florida, another one in Colorado and another which I cannot remember. I saw some minor issues in the past, a tachometer failure and two tow ins. Here is the big issue to me. The 30K major service was done almost right at 30K miles. The problem; it was at the beginning of 2001. The car traveled about 5K miles since then. I think the mileage is true and correct. I understand that there will be maintenance involved which also will be more costly versus a Mercedes or Porsche but, I dont want to be faced with an awaiting disaster. I was hoping that some of you who have way more experience with these cars to give me some honest and correct feedback. I would truly appreciate it and thank you very kindly in advance. Car facts: 1986 Ferrari 328 GTS 34,xxx miles Blue / light tan Major done in 2001 at about 30K miles Repainted Service history All books, records, spare, tools and cover VIN 2FFXA20A360065601 I have following questions / concerns: - Should I expect to do another major service due to the fact that the last one was done in 2001 ? - What in particular should I look for on the car and its records ? - What service would you recommend shall I have performed at time of taking possession ? - What should I budget realistically per annum for service ? - What sounds should I pay attention too ? Good or bad ? - It has been sitting for over a week, it had a tough time starting and I saw smoke, which smelled like gas. It was no longer evident after it ran for about 10 seconds and the exhaust fumes smelled normal. Should I however, be concerned and what is normal as far as the exhaust is concerned ? - The car was painted, how much does that affect its value and quality (no accident history but Shelton noted light right front fender damage upon service drop off in their records) ? - It idled different from any other car I have ever owned and it seemed rough at first. The reply I received was; they all do that and it is normal. Is it true ? If you have any other points, questions, advise or comments, please kindly share them. Again, I thank you very much for your time it takes to answer my questions. Even if this 328 is not the right one, I will continue my search. It is however just so tempting to pull the trigger when it is right in front of you ! Respectfully, Ditch
328's are great cars either as first Ferraris or long term keepers. I have an 89 GTB in the garage with my 430. The 328 will remain forever, the 430 is still on probation but enough of that. It sounds like the car has crema interior which is common with blue cars. You did not mention wether it is dark or light blue. Seriously, a PPI is in order to resolve some of your questions. It sounds like the records are good but it will need a major service now which may also cure the rough idle and gas smell issues you raise. In my experience, a stone cold 328 will fire nearly instantly, sputter a couple of seconds and then have a smooth, high idle while warming up. If this is not the case, there is probably something wrong which may or may not be a big deal. If you can tell me where in Colorado it was serviced, I might be able to find something out. REpaints are not common, but not rare either but does raise some questions. Perhaps you can find a good body shop to check it out. You should know, however, that Ferrari used lead fillers at the factory and some waviness or small depressions in the body work are probably from the factory. You don't mention a price, but given an 86 in an "off" color needing service, I think it should be mid to high 30's. Dave
Dave, thank you for the information. Your are absolutely right on the price. They are fairly firm at around $37K. The color is the dark blue and the interior is crema. I just couldnt remember crema. I wish I could remember the name of the place in Colorado, but glancing through all the papers and memorizing as much as possible was tough. I hear you on the PPI and I agree with you 100%. The only problem is this area. I dont think there is any other place qualified enough to even touch the hood latch. Perhaps waiting and sourcing the right car in South Florida, closer to Shelton Ferrari might be a better idea. As far as the starting, it did so after the second try but the idle seemed at least to me a bit unusual. Just like you said, more of a sputter which lasted about a minute and then got better and smoother. What type of service would be in order if I elect to acquire this 328 ? A full major service such as the 30K service or something to a lesser degree ? Oh and I forgot, I had somebody who works at a body shop look at it who confirmed no accident damage but noticed the paint job is not of Ferrari quality. He pointed out two areas where the clear coat is just beginning to loosen. Hardly detectible, under the windshield on the drivers side and below the left wiper. It was also a total repaint and not a blend-in. I again thank you for your response and insights.
Hi Ditch, I second all of the above. Price reasonable in my opinion. Difficult to say on cause of hard starting, my car routinely sits for 1-2wks and, other than cranking for about 3 sec, starts up immediately without any smoke clouds. Could be the TTS/CSI isn't functioning properly, neither of which is particularly expensive. Expensive bits are engine/transmission & anything 328-specific (heater console switches, for example). Do you know for certain car was not in an accident? (i.e. most F-cars are garaged, and live a relatively sheltered life so unless previous owner perfectionist it was likely repainted for a reason?) Is so, shall need to look at frame/suspension/etc. In budgeting for maintenance repairs, do you intend to do your own work? If not, prices will be significantly higher. Many people on FC do their own work and are happy to help guide one (or if in vicinity, drop by) through procedures. Difficult to say regarding yearly expenses, there are some things that fall under the "must fix" category and other under the "cosmetics" moniker. Figuer 1-2x yearly oil changes (filters $10-25, oil 9 quarts of your favorite), brake flush ($10 fluids), air filter ($30-55), transmission oil (4-5 quarts, as above), fuel filter ($15), coolant flush (every other year?). Do the tires require replacement? This car should have the 30K/belt change done now, not deferred. Baseline will be about $3500-5000 or so, and count on finding other things "while you're there" such as fuel hoses, coolant hoses, etc. If the car has no major issues I would expect another $1-2K to cover most, but without disassembly I don't think anyone can other than guess. Some prefer to buy cars pre-30K so new owner has more input into process. Several folks here have done their own 30K/belts, and engine removal from car not required. As I'm sure you've researched, they're really quite good cars. Honestly, as a first-time buyer, you won't know much about the cars until you've owned one for a while. Although some folks get by without PPI, you *are* obviously taking a risk (it's a used car). Make sure however you're buying the best car you can, as a more expensive car initially may turn out less expensive in the long term. Make sure you can live with the imperfections in this particular car; you may not recover your costs if you decide to sell in a year. Best, Carl PS: Blue/white is very pretty. Oh, and the car wasn't originally clear-coated (just so you know)
The thing with Ferraris is that they rarely make enough milage between services to warrant a service on the basis of miles. The thing which is important are the timing belts and they should be replaced every five years. It has been 5 years, so you are due for belts no matter what. That should be reflected in the price. Depending on whether you do a full major or just replace the belts, the price could be from as low as $200 (doing the belts yourself) to $5K+ (a full major done by a dealer). There is no reason why a 328 shoulod have a hard time starting or idle rough. It could be as simple as fouled plugs to a poorly adjusted injection system, or as is common with 328s that sit, clogged injectors. None of those are a huge deal. Birdman
Yeah I would just request that the seller take you on a spirited drive to let get up to heat and the cobwebs out. You would be surprised at how much better, or worse, it will run. I test drove a 308QV once it started fine and idled great but the minute I got on it on a test drive it ran like crap and I got the, "its never acted like that before" quip. I even told the guy to run the tank dry and put in some brand new gas and then call me for a retry but he didnt and when I called him he sold the car....
Re: routine service, I pay about $100 for an oil change once per year, and about $450 for gear oil, brake fluid, and coolant change every two years.
Is this the car under discussion? http://www.ferrarichat.com/ferrariads/showproduct.php?product=1041&sort=1&cat=11&page=1 Jon
Ditch, You may want to look for an independent porsche or BMW service shop. Any competent mechanic can do the compression/leakdown test. The German marques used the same fuel system, so they should be able to spot any problems with it. The electrical parts are almost all Bosch, so they should know those as well. You can take out the owner's manual and check the operation of all the accessories and lights yourself. Also, go through the records again and make sure the oil lines and A arms were updated per the Ferrari campaign. I don't know if they were actually recalls, or just updates. Ferrari paint is not very good to begin with, so I would dismiss the body shop's comments about quality. Dave
Hello everybody and a big thank you so far ! I really appreciate all of your help and feedback. I have already learned a lot within these two days ! I never realized that the car originally did not have clear coat. As far as service, I wish I could do some of the service myself. I am not handy at all and in fact, Im rather clumsy. I just have no clue what makes a car tick (Service Advisors love me). Hardtop, I saw and remember reading somewhere in the to do column of the papers 146 Recall. Is that the issues you refer to when talking about the A-Arm and oil lines ? I also never even considered the leak down / compression test. Carlrose, I know that there are many great articles being shared on this site and I have read the occasional heck, I am in the area, Ill drop by line. I think that is what makes this / your community so great. That is why I finally had the guts to come out of the closet; the lurker closet that is . . . Jon, yes that is the actual car I am considering. Again, the car looks great. It is not a concurs candidate and needs some minor cosmetics to get it to my standards. I didnt know the car was advertised here and I am glad you found it ! Thank you ! Hopefully it will help out some more. http://www.ferrarichat.com/ferrariad...&cat=11&page=1 Shark49, it is hard to judge and translate the feelings and sounds to something that makes sense to me. I have nothing to compare it to. This is like I said an unexpected opportunity. The car could run on two cylinders or backfire constantly, I would still be all giddy up since I am sitting in a Ferrari. I would think, it has to be that way. I always compare it to Jaguar. They have great suspensions, so great in fact that the amateur could not tell the difference between a well worn and bad performing car or a perfect one. To him or her, it will feel great and just perfect. I hope that makes some sense. For the most part the feedback I received from all of you, Birdman and others, is that I need to count on a major service. The regular maintenance does seem to be manageable (judging by Len Ss and Carlroses list) and I even have no problem coughing up the funds for a major service later on after a few miles of enjoyment. I have to be honest however, I would rather buy a 328 that has just received the major or is at least good for a while before needing it. It is more psychological and I know that but, there always is something unsettling about buying a car and then having some major work done on it immediately even if it is preventative. Not sure if anyone understands what I mean. On a side note, the 328 has always been my dream car from my childhood days. Again, a big thank you to all of you for your input.
No, I completely understand what you mean... What you have to do, though, is shift your frame of thinking. Instead of thinking of buying a car, and then throwing money at "major work" (even if preventative), consider it part of the experience of buying a used Ferrari, and making it "like new." There's something special about buying a new car - you're the first one to own it, to drive it, to wash it, to change its oil, and so on. With a used car, you don't know how well (or not well) its been treated by its previous owners. With Ferraris, though, there are generally the cars that have been pampered a la "Ferris Bueller's Day Off", and there are the car's that have been driven. No matter which category you are purchasing from, both engines can be made (mechanically) like new, allowing you - the new owner - to experience a minimum of 5 years or 30,000 miles of (hopefully) worry-free driving. Not necessarily *maintenance-free*, mind you, but just free from worry of when the last time the belts were changed, who did them, and whether they were done right. ************** When I get a new (used) car, the first thing I love to do is to give it a *really* thorough cleaning, inside and out. It's nothing against the previous owner(s) - it's just a bonding experience for me. I know that from that point on, any dirt, dust, crumbs, sand, hair, etc. that gets in/on the car is from *me* - not anybody else. Somehow, that makes it better for me... You could look at a major service the same way: Regardless of how it might stumble, smoke, or hesitate now, when you get it back from the service it should run like a top. That "like-new" running condition you'll experience as you drive away from the service shop for the first time will be your reference point for the rest of your ownership experience to which you can compare any future "hiccups." Believe me, there'll be no shortage of looking down at the gauges and saying to yourself, "I could've *sworn* the oil pressure was higher than that yesterday," or "Wasn't my coolant temp cooler than this last time I went out," when you first get your Ferrari. It's exhilirating and nerve-racking all at the same time. At any rate, best of luck in your search, and welcome (finally) to the site! Thanks for sharing your story with us... Aaron
Hi Ditch, I looked at the same car a couple of weeks ago. IMO, the seller is being pretty reasonable about the car and the price. He's a motorhead, like most of us here, and has a fun gig (sell and/or fix cars during the week and race on the weekend) and he wouldn't want to jeopardize that (he had a mint Daytona in his shop for servicing the day I was there plus he maintains his own 355 Spyder). If the car passes a PPI I think it's definitely worth buying but what turned me off was the interior redye, even though it's nicely done. And the fact that I'm looking for a keeper that's gotta be black. As far as a PPI there are two places in Fort Walton Beach (about 1 1/2 hours away from you) who might be able to help. One is a shop that specializes in Porsche repair, though I've seen a few Ferraris there on occasion (355, 328 and Mondial 3.2). They're on Beal Parkway about a block south of Yacht Club Drive. Their name escapes me right now. The other is Tune-ups and Such by the Mall on the Mary Ester Cutoff. The owner has worked on several exotics over the years (Boxer, 308/328, TR) but I haven't stopped by in awhile. Does anyone have a PPI checklist?
Lots of good posts above, but as someone who bought a 328 in December I'd add: Don't skip the PPI, given that your mechanical skills are modest (I'm in the same boat). The car seems priced OK given that it needs a major service. During that service, make sure the mechanic focuses on safety items such as fuel lines and brake lines. You don't want 20-year old rubber fuel lines back there. Of course a compression test is the big item in a PPI, so get the results. An impending engine rebuild can make a good deal very bad very fast. Drive another one before you buy. My first 328 drive was actually in a blue/cream car early last year at Ferrari of Denver. They had a black/black '87 in stock at the same time, so I got to compare cosmetics, engine noises, exhaust sound, switches and so on. I'm convinced there's no way you (or I) could really go through a rational buying process if you've wanted a 328 forever and you have it in front of you. Make sure you want blue. If it's blu chiaro, I've seen them and they look great but they can be a bit harder to sell than red or black. You might want to see red or black 328's in person before committing to blue. They do run a bit "coarser" than modern cars, but the cold start experience Dave described sounds right to me. The gas smell on startup does NOT sound right - something to focus on during the PPI and (if you buy) the servicing. Good luck with the hunt. I can tell you they are very exciting, gorgeous cars and I really can't see how I'd ever want to sell mine. But I passed on 8-10 cars before buying mine, and it was hard to do. I'll be putting a few $K into my near-perfect-looking (former show-winning) 328 on the cosmetic side to get it where I want it, so don't underestimate those costs.
Hello Wade, I am glad you had a chance to look at the same car. I share your opinion regarding the seller. He seems very straight forward and my subconscious didnt raise any red flags. He is a motor-head, which I see as a plus. I did see the Daytona on his lot too. They are working on it for a customer. I thank you for the leads on places around here for a proper PPI. I will check into them for sure. I do doubt however that hed allow me to take the car that far, which I could and would understand. Going back to the 328 we both looked at, I actually thought the interior was untouched. The only part that really takes away from the beauty is the bolster on the driver seat. I was surprised that the car did still has some reminiscence of the good ole Connolly smell. I did also wonder if the dash was re-skinned as it seemed too perfect and it felt vinyl like. I am glad you were able to give me car specific feedback, thank you ! Best of luck to you in your search for your black beauty !
Aaron, Good to hear that you understand what I mean. It sure was hard to express without sounding too strange. I can absolutely relate to your experiences. I learned real quick, after buying almost only new cars, that it is just not money wise. I now only buy low mileage used cars and have the other person take the depreciation hit. I am however a bit picky and pick the cleanest cars, immaculate leather and carpet and still with the new car smell (I am the kind that uses floor mats for floor mats and towels to protect the leather, I need help, I know J ). I also do exactly what you do when purchasing a used car and detailing gives me great pleasure. In fact, it turned into a real hobby of mine. I researched the best products to use over many years but, that is whole other thread. The goal is to get it to be as new as possible. I pride myself of being able to restore the beautiful leather smell and keeping it that way. I also understand your viewpoint regarding the major service and it does make perfect sense. As I said before, it is all in my head. I am also very religious about service and have all my cars serviced / oil changed every 3K miles or every three months. By the way, I cant believe you mentioned bonding experience. Anytime I used that phrase, people just laughed at me. I am glad I am not the only one out there that sees it the same way. When it comes to cars, especially the exotics, classics, collector type and rare ones, it truly is bonding. Each of these cars tell a story and boy if they could talk. There is also something very special when you consider who built your Ferrari, Jaguar or anything else that was hand made back then. To me it is more then just a car, it is history, heritage and true craftsmanship. It is special and needs to be preserved. Thank you for welcoming me to the board, it took me a while to break the board-barrier. I am also glad to be able to share my story as it unfolds, regardless if I buy this one or take advantage of another opportunity another time. What I find more exciting is the fact that other people I have never met, dont even know, who dont know me, actually take part and share their opinions, viewpoints and experiences. That is very valuable. Bullfighter, Thank you for your response. Describing my mechanical skills as modest is highly overrated. Anytime I try to repair something, I just end up making it worse. And, I try really hard to make it right. I honestly have no talent at all for that. I will be checking into the PPI places Wade mentioned but I am afraid I will not get a chance to take the car that far for the PPI. And trust me, I see what you are saying regarding the engine rebuild. As far as keeping a rational buying process in mind while being in front of it is almost impossible. As soon as I saw it, I drooled and had the checkbook ready. Ferraris are just so darned sexy. I personally would prefer my Ferrari in red or yes, even yellow. But, this is / was an opportunity and I believe in understatement as much as possible. Any other color aside from red and yellow is not as flashy and obvious. In this area, I think it is very important to be somewhat under the radar. Now, if I would have stayed in Boca Raton, color would not have mattered there. I do think you are right. I may have to hunt a bit more and drive different ones. Perhaps it is wise not to go for the first one. I also do not have any problem putting money into a car to get it to near perfect condition. I have always done that. I just want to avoid the big ticket items such as the engine, transmission, clutch and so forth.
FYI, the dash on the 328 is vinyl - which is actually much better than the shrinkage-prone leather on the later cars. I had a pounding headache and my gut was turning when I walked away from the first 328. My brain told me that with the number of paint scratches, deteriorated interior bits and miscellany that I'd have another $10K in the car very fast. You WILL notice every little imperfection once you own it. Be VERY critical when you're shopping (unless you're really just out for a track car or something to drive into the ground). They all have little Ferrari badges. Look past that and study study study the car. Editorial/subjective stuff: Black (and, to be completely biased, black metallic! ) is a stunning color for 328s. A Ferrari needs no flash. It just is. I can't argue with red - they look great. But IMO black is just naughty looking and a touch stand-off-ish. It blends design features like the targa top, rear quarter grilles and outside mirrors quite nicely.
Check this one out http://www.***********.com/classified/view.php?id=356 I drove it last week and if it was red, i would have bought it. Extremely nice and very tight. Engine sounds amazing and idles perfectly. The owner just sunk 10k into it. this is a no-brainer if you want black.
on the same subject, does anybody know anything about this one? http://www.exoticars.us/gal_88fr328rd.html how about getting a PPI near pittsburgh? thanks.
Hello I just had a chance to read the thread. And since I am selling the car would like to clarify a few things. This car does not have ANY starting or idle problems AT ALL. I understand why Ditch posted his preceptions of the vehicle, it can be a big adjustment going from ditches 95 Jaguar to a Ferrari. As everyone here knows all car brands do not all start or idle the same. I just don't want anyone getting the wrong impression of this car. This is a sound mechanical car. It does not smoke, burn , smell , leak oil or gas. It is not a concours car , or a garage queen. It does have some flaws which I gladly point out. I am more than happy to provide any info. on the car to anyone and it is available for any type of inspection anytime. Including compression test, Leak down, body shop etc. I don't want this car to get mislabeled as a problem car. I also know that was not the intent of this thread. This community can be very close nit , and Ferrari Chat is a great resource! Thanks Dave
If I weren't so set on a black/tan 328GTS it'd probably be mine by now, especially at that price. The usual red 308/328s aren't my thing but this color blue sure is a close second.
Hello Dave, By all means, I did not want to indicate or even allude to the car being a problem car at all. I was very honest and upfront with you that I never owned one of these. That is why I said it seemed to idle a bit different from what I am used to. We both know that this car cannot compare to the XJS I would trade towards the 328. I also said that the car looked great and that I was very impressed with its interior and smell. You also got to know me a bit and understand that I invest a lot of money into cars (sometimes more then they are valued at) to make them as perfect as possible. In this case, I simply fear the unknown a bit and I am not shy to admit it and it is truly my fault. I also stated that I was very impressed with you, how straight forward I think you are and that you have no hidden agendas. I therefore would only highly recommend you and buy a car from you without hesitation. Even though I decided to pass on that specific car, I still want to do business with you because we liked the way you treated us. The car is very nice and with some detailing can be brought up to garage queen status. I do apologize if it sounded like I was making the Ferrari sound bad, it was truly not my intention. I merely wanted to seek some professional and additional feedback by sharing my impressions. Since these were my impressions, I just wanted to know if they are reasonable or not. Dave, I think you are a great person and very honest. You are truly not a typical salesman as it seems to be more of a passionate hobby to you. And again, I am sorry if it sounded in any way, shape or form as if the car would be a problem. I did not mean to do that ! Best wishes and see you soon, Kai
Kai Thanks for the reply. I also enjoyed meeting and talking with you. I know you were only expressing your honest thoughts. No offense taken and no appologies necessary. Since I spoke to you in detail ,I knew where you were coming from. I was afraid others may misconstrue the thread and think twice about calling on or coming to see the car. It can sometimes be hard to describe things in a forum. Everyones preception can be different. It's just not the same as seeing it in person. On the other hand forums like this are Great! Someone new to a make or model can ask questions and get alot of great feedback. Look forward to talking to you again soon Dave
