Restorations, Originality and Concours Judging

I have shown cars for years at various club events and other multi marque concours and I think the light has finally come on in my head.
Why do relatively intelligent, successful people become complete neurotic wrecks over the state of their restorations. The net result is usually some level of disappointment, where a "judge" finds some nitpicky item or two to castigate you about and make you feel like a failure.

I have decided that I love my hobby for the pleasure it gives me, not for the jollies it gives to a concours judge to find "something" to deduct points for.

I will only show my cars at non-judged events for myself and the pleasure it gives to everybody who turns out to to see these beautiful old works of art.

The final straw for me was a Jaguar concours where the crusty old fart who was in charge of the E-type category, pulled out a cloth measuring tape to measure the circumference of my factory original steering wheel and deducted two points (out of 1,000) for the wheel being 2mm too large, because we had dipped the wheel in epoxy to keep the beautiful wood from drying out and splintering.

There are countless threads here regarding the originality of cars and components and the truth is that even at the factory there was no absolute standard. They used what they had and there is no judge on the planet who can say definitively that something or other, like a crackle finish on an air box is "incorrect".

Aah! That feels better now....

 

hmm..perhaps skip the concours all together and hang out at the race track for a while!

Chipped paint, cars splattered with bits of black rubber, decals peeling are all the norm!

...and everyone is still just a crazy for their Ferraris...just a thought

 

Great idea! But a Daytona convertible without seat belts or a mid-fifties four-seater GT on skinny old tires may not do too well at the track.
The modern cars are not concours candidates anyway so the track is really their first choice for where to spend the weekend!

I'm sure you're enjoying the CS.

 

My sentiments exactly. Why let any Ferrari sit around when you can be flinging it between corners?

 

When you have more Ferraris than days of the week, it tends to happen.

 

That would be a good exception to the rule. I guess then you would just need a race trailer to pack some F's up for the track and enjoy them all.

 

But then you would also have to find time for the Carrera GT and the other exotics.

 

Sounds like a vicious cycle. I guess it only comes down to building a private track on your property. I think I could be happy with that.

 

I really enjoy car shows and concours, I love to be at a local show with mainly hotrods and muscle cars and have a 10 year old kid get excited to see his first Ferrari in the metal. I really like to be the first to offer a seat in one and to encourage a future tifosi. I also do not mind having my car judged, even though I know my car is no where near Pebble beach or even local concours standards. My car has chips and some wavy body panels, it needs many items to be up to the car show standards, but I take my lumps and usually get a participation or silver award and hopefully walk away with an idea of how to improve the car for the next show. I accept that I have a non-standard shift knob and will gladly give up the points, because I like it better than the original black knob. I understand that in some situations with very rare and high valued cars it would be a negative in the resale value to score poorly in a national show, but for the average mass produced Ferrari does it really matter?

I run our local Ferrari Concorso, thank god I am not in charge of the judging, but every year we have people complain about deductions, most of the time they are complaining about non-standard items. Some complain about aftermarket exhaust, stating that a dealer installed it so it shouldn't be deducted. Some complain about deductions for aftermarket stereos and tinted windows and deductions for chips, etc....
Even though I think the FCA rules are the best where you are judged on originality and not against the other cars, there are still some gray areas, and some people like to push the envelope of those areas. The FCA rules allow that every car being judged could potentially be awarded a platinum award, if it meets the minimum of 95 points, but some participants read that as every car is going to get a platinum for particpating.


I am amazed at some of these shows and how seriously people take the judging (judges and participants). At the end of the day you are driving home in a beautiful piece of automotive art that most would love to just have a ride in, plus probably a trophy or ribbon. And if the judges deducted for an item that you changed to either make the car perform better, look better, sound better etc... at least the improvement is usually better than the 2 points you would have scored and you will probably enjoy the improvement to the car more than a little larger trophy on the mantle.

 

Great thread, and one I have considered posting. This is an issue that needs to be discussed. However, you may wish to move it to the vintage section to get some more feedback. Some of those guys never venture out here on the main dance floor.

Dale

 

Ah, Terry.....that IS original for most Ferrari from the factory. If the car is from the 50's, 60's, 70's or 80'2 and doesn't have ripples, drips, etc., it should be considered over-restored and have points deducted.

Terry is correct, we all thank God he runs the local Concorso...

My objective is to extract the most fun from my cars.

Non-competitive track events are #1 for me.
Driving and touring with my wife is #2
Sharing my cars with others seeing them smile, especially the kids, is #3.

To each his (or her) own.

 

Over restoration is always a danger.

I run at both end of the spectrum... I can appreciate a total restoration, but I love a good ole beater too. Both have thier place.

I've been attending PB for many years now, and have seen the judges in certain classes get pickier and pickier. But then again the quality of the cars has been going up.

I was heartened to see the addition of the Tour and the ribbons on the car on the green. Not only do they have to look good, but they actually have to run and ride.

I was also heartened to see the addition of the "preservation" classes. It allows original "drivers" a place on the green.


There will always be a place for both...at least I hope so. I enjoy seeing the result of someone putting nearly unlimited funds into restoration, even though the result may be "better" than when the car left the assembly line. And I certainly like the beater/drivers, and I LOVE the racers.

the key is picking the right type of show to enter your ride in.

 

While I agree that concours are not for everyone, I am still glad a lot of Ferrari owners do enjoy keeping their cars as original as possible for future generations to enjoy as they were originally designed and produced...

 

I can vouch that Terry did a superb job with the '05 concorso (I was out in PHX visiting a friend and we attended.) Also I can vouch that my '87 328 has some wavy panels under its original paint.

Great post. I'd differ slightly in that my philosophy is that today's mass-produced (in thousands) Ferrari's are tomorrow's classics, so that it does matter. Relatively speaking, they're all rare, so, while it's up to everyone what they do with their car, I would be saddened if in 2021 original 328's were as rare as Daytona's are now. I can say from personal experience that great 308's are already tough to find.

Age and accidents take their toll on cars (especially sports cars). If you think Porsche 911's are common -- and they are, compared to contemporary Ferrari's -- look at the prices on early (pre-'74) cars in pristine condition. While 996's are everywhere, it's now a rare treat to see a beautifully kept early 911 on the road.

So - it really does matter, IMO.

 

410SA,

Welcome to the dark side! You have beautiful cars for your enjoyment and for you to share with others as you like, save the type A personality stuff for the real world.

My car still has its original paint (definately a 20 footer) but it's mechanically excellent. I have it for my own pleasure (funny how you don't notice the paint while driving) and to share with friends. I once entered the New Hope Auto Show (a regional show/concourse in eastern PA) because the entry fee was the same as the parking fee but gave me a better parking spot. I opened up the car and left to look at the other cars. When I got back, I had won third in class! Personally, I thought the judges were nuts but apparently the car was found to be very original. As I didn't care about the judging it was a bonus; if it had been important, I probobly would have been upset about not winning.

Regards,

Art S.

 

Found it this time...

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=93575&highlight=show+550+concourse

Dr Who posted the line about non-origional air in the tires. Great line.

Here's his post...

"Personally, I think that judging cars newer than, say, 25 years is dumb. But what do I know?

What I have been told in the past is to deduct points for any non-original part on a newer Ferrari. This can even include bras or clear plastic. However, I have never heard of anyone losing points for having non-original air in their tires.

So yes, you will get a haircut for having a Tubi. But, please, don't take it off. It ain't worth it.

Dale"

I agree completely!

 

I have American air in my tires. Car handles OK, but it's not like the factory stuff.

 

My post seem to be long and in my haste to cut it down I did not clearly expess myself. What I meant was that it really effects the value of rarer vehicles for example if you say purchased a 410SA that took a 2nd overall winner at Pebble Beach and then showed it at another Concours a year later and received a Silver or Gold, it would be recorded and it would appear that you had not preserved the car as well as you could have. A platinum 308/328/348/355 is not worth that much more than a silver currently and the effects of a poor showing will not be noticed by most people in search of a good car. Unfortunately with cars like 250 GTOs, 250LMs, 500 Superfasts and the like a poor showing will effect value compared to other cars. I do think preservation matters and my goal every year is to drive the car and to put the car back to original as close as financially possible. It really doesn't matter to me if I get a silver, gold, platinum or participant ribbon, I just really like to see the judges notes and fix the things I can (or want to) and disregard the rest.

 

Race history is MUCH more important value wise for a 250 GTO or 250 LM or any Comp. car than any concours trophy.

 

Agreed!

 

An epoxy encased E-type steering wheel sounds hideously over-restored to me.
...Surely it was obvious well before any meaurement.

 

You're obviously entitled to think whatever you wish, but this particular piece (the epoxy encased steering wheel) was done for the purpose of preserving the original wheel - not restoring it. To the naked eye it looks exactly the same as a regular steering wheel would look if it had been well taken care since it was new. 40 year-old wood steering wheels, especially those on E-Types, are rather delicate items. They bend in your hands under spirited driving and most of them show signs of hairline cracking. They also tend to dry out in climates like Arizona and it simply makes sense to protect them, without altering them aesthetically.
The judge in question here had clearly seen this type of work before and he was determined to not let anyone get away with anything on his watch - otherwise, who knows, western civilization as we know it might cease to exist!

 

I know what you are talking about. My father used to own a few etypes and people did this alot and he used to cringe when he would see them but when his started craking he did it too. Fkem I say. You will always get weird deductions unless you are going to shows of extreme high caliber. I honestly got pissed too when I got the results in on my mondial from at a show and when I got the comments weeks later, I then went nuts trying to fix the issues. Finally I said who frigging cares. So I wont get a trophy but I least I will have fun and get to play with my toy and meet cool people and not worry about the improperly folded straps on the rear seat backs or the slight wave in the exhaust grill mesh...or the lights that worked perfectly until that exact moment when asked to turn them on and nothing happened. :0)
-Nate

 

Alex: I whole heartedly commend you. There are those who have found balance (Jim comes to mind), but if it were me in your shoes, I'd be thinking "the hell with what everyone else thinks - I bought them to enjoy them and no one's going to take that away from me."

Don't stop showing them at non-judged events. Little kids the world around should cry if you do. But forget the guys who have nothing better to do than establish their moment of superiority, life is too short to get stressed about it.

--Dan

PS: I have a bike rack you can throw on your maranello or CS if you want.