Restoring my Grandfather’s Three Pocket Watches - Elgin, Waltham and … | Page 5 | FerrariChat

Restoring my Grandfather’s Three Pocket Watches - Elgin, Waltham and …

Discussion in 'Fine Watches, Jewelry, & Clothes' started by Brian A, Jan 12, 2021.

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  1. walnut

    walnut F1 Rookie
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    Aug 14, 2006
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    Rich
    I'm getting so close on these... I think by the end of the week it may be time to stop chasing my tail and call it good enough. They will definitely be better timed than when they came out of the factory.
     
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  2. walnut

    walnut F1 Rookie
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    The Waltham is running strong. Tightly grouped timing (+/- 10 sec/day) from the few positions I've checked and the beat error is down to 1.4ms. The max amplitude has registered up to 305 degrees which is GREAT! It self-starts, etc. While I wish I could get that beat error much lower, I fear at this point I'm chasing perfection where good enough is more than enough.

    It is time to focus on getting that Elgin timed. I attempted to burnish the pivot (impossible to take photos of that process since it takes two hands. The "mushroom" of the pivot looks better but isn't gone entirely. Reassembled though, the watch is running very strong so I'm hesitant to replace the staff... again, would I be chasing perfection. I was really struggling to figure out why this was running so quickly; it was measuring 180+ sec/day fast. Screw adjustments didn't seem to be having enough of a difference to account for it. Then I saw something that looked out of place around the rim of the balance wheel....

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    There are two empty threaded holes for balance weight screws, no big deal, right? Well if you look really closely you can see that there is a very circular change in the patina of the material around each hole that is the diameter of a balance weight screw! I checked the photos from when I received it and they were not there, then either. I suspect this is the issue. A little poking around the internet found that every interchangeable balance I could find had weights in these locations. Now I have to track down some 16s sized weights for an Elgin. Shouldn't be too difficult but that's definitely not something I saw coming.
     
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  3. walnut

    walnut F1 Rookie
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    So frustrating to wait on parts like this. Sorry, Brian!
     
  4. QtrItalian

    QtrItalian Karting

    Jan 22, 2021
    172
    Just to save you some time. If you're only off by 180 (that's well within timing washer adjustment) then the only screw to go there will be a real short/flat topped one. If you mount two of those standard ones you'll be negative 900-1200 in no time. Also if you mount a screw try for brass not gold. Gold weighs more so will really slow it. Another issue is the screw threads on the Elgin are course and smaller screws may be hard to find... Life is learning so see what you get. I agree I and like to restore things to where they should be but barring not understanding what happened and not getting too far with a screw addition you may need two 2-minute washers and 2-20 sec washers diametrically mounted and then adjust the regulator for the remaining 10-20 seconds. I am amazed at how accurate the washers are claimed to be on the box assortments (as long as not too tarnished).
     
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  5. Brian A

    Brian A F1 Rookie

    Dec 21, 2012
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    No worries. I got the watches in 2019 so they sat dead for a long time. A little longer doesn't matter.

    I think I am going to get the same sort of display mount and bell jar that PhilB bought for his restored pocket watch. I hope to to use them as my desk clock.
     
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  6. walnut

    walnut F1 Rookie
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  7. GordonX

    GordonX Karting

    Mar 10, 2013
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    South Florida
  8. walnut

    walnut F1 Rookie
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  9. GordonX

    GordonX Karting

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    #109 GordonX, May 6, 2021
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
    Thank you. I did that a few years ago and discovered the year and the movement. The case is beautiful with ornately carved gold. I believe the case company is/was APC. I guess in those days, the case was made by a different company than the actual watch company. I hold this watch in my hands in 2021 and wonder what my Grandfather was thinking as a poor Italian immigrant wandering the mean streets of Massachusetts in the early 1900s. I bet this was one of his prized possessions - actually probably one of his few possessions at all. He died long before I was born.
     
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  10. QtrItalian

    QtrItalian Karting

    Jan 22, 2021
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  11. QtrItalian

    QtrItalian Karting

    Jan 22, 2021
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    It looks like it could be solid gold based on the style of engraving. If true, indeed an expensive piece of property then and now. If you open it again and show markings and movement we can provide more detail. The case has a little European flair to it and you're right most watches / cases were sold separately until the 1920s.
     
  12. walnut

    walnut F1 Rookie
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    As was feared, the extra timing screws have added far too much weight. It looks like I'm going to have to be a little more creative. Time to make that new lathe of mine earn her keep! I have two spare screws so I'll begin by turning down their heights to see if that will get me where we need to be. If that doesn't work, I have some brass stock lying around which I can make washers from.
     
  13. walnut

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    When I was removing the new timing screws, I decide to tinker with the timing arm a bit more and see if I was missing something. It looked like the pins of the adjusting arm were hitting the balance cock and that was stopping it from moving any further down the "slow" end of the range. After quite a bit of poking, prying, and whatnot I discovered that the arm was catching on the stud that holds the end of the hairspring in the balance cock. With a gently pry from the smallest screwdriver blade I have, it opened up a few more indices on the adjustment range.

    The timing is now within about +/-60 sec a day depending on the position it is in. I'm sure that the timing screws were messed with in the past which explains while it is so out of poise. I do not have access to the broad selection it would require to properly adjust AND I don't have a temperature chamber. You may be wondering why I'd need one. Well, with a bimetallic balance like this, the inner ring of the balance is steel and the outer is brass. They are bonded together. The dissimilar material properties means that the arms (the rim isn't a solid ring, it has to slits in it) bend inward and outward as the materials expand at different rates. A majority of the timing weights are on these moving portions and changing one needs to be checked across the range to ensure you're not making it MUCH worse under differing conditions.

    Here is the main page from my "The Theory of Horology" textbook explaining what I'm talking about (section 2 on the page):

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    At this point, I think I've reached the end of what I can accomplish with the tools and materials readily accessible. That goes for all three watches. Are they perfect? No. Are they good and MUCH better than when they arrived? You betcha! Obviously I wish I could nail these down to be as good as brand new but after that many years of life, we all pick up a bit of character, it is all part of the charm.

    To everyone that has followed along with this saga, thank you for your interest, and I hope each of you has taken something away in terms of appreciation of the history and beauty of mechanical timepieces.

    @Brian A , thank you again for trusting me with these pieces! It has been a longer process than I'd initially expected and had plenty of "learning opportunities" along the way and I believe I am truly a better horologist because of the experience. I'll be in touch shortly to arrange they safe voyage home!
     
  14. Brian A

    Brian A F1 Rookie

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    Rich and I have PMed and have arranged for the pocket watches to travel back home. What an adventure this has been!

    It has been so cool to follow along through the problem solving to get the watches working again. I am beyond delighted. These 120 year old watches are now good for another 120 years. ... what is that, another 4 generations? In the short term, I will enjoy them as my desk watches.

    An enormous thank you goes out to "Walnut"!
     
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  15. walnut

    walnut F1 Rookie
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  16. QtrItalian

    QtrItalian Karting

    Jan 22, 2021
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    Not to pressure but if you want me to mail some assorted 16 size timing washers I'm happy to do so (it'll only cost me a stamp). On the other hand we all need to know when "good" is good enough. I'm trying to remember who I heard this from: "The enemy of good is great".
     
  17. walnut

    walnut F1 Rookie
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    I appreciate the offer but Brian and I have agreed that “good enough is good enough” at this point. The watches are officially on their way back home now.
     
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  18. Brian A

    Brian A F1 Rookie

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    I am very excited to get them back!

    ”Perfect is the enemy of good” ~ Voltaire, 1770
     
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  19. italiafan

    italiafan F1 World Champ
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    Beautiful thread.
    Bravo!
     
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  20. intrepidcva11

    intrepidcva11 F1 Rookie
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    Many sincere thanks to Rich and Brian for this splendid journey. Many years ago I inherited my Dad's Gruen 'Precision Verithin Pentagon' pocket watch that he must have bought in the 1920s when he was a young lawyer in New York City. It lay in my desk for years and seemed to make reasonably accurate time. Then I decided to have a professional clean lube adjust and gave it to the father-son Lodowskis, master watchmakers at Manhattan Time Services. Came back beautiful and accurate to better than railroad chronometer accuracy of +/- 30 sec/week = approx 4.2857 sec/day.
     
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  21. rdefabri

    rdefabri Three Time F1 World Champ

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    That's a great story. I have my grandfather's Gruen Precision 510 "Bond" watch that I wear from time to time.
     
  22. Brian A

    Brian A F1 Rookie

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    Got the watches back from Rich this evening.

    Wow! The first thing that strikes me is just how shiny they are. They look absolutely majestic. My favorite is the Elgin with that formal dial but it is cool to see all of them working again. Even the Westclox looks nice in its Westclox sort of way. Its beat rate is so slow: it ticks like an old desk clock.

    I showed my daughter and she took interest. It was a charming moment.

    Hard to believe that two of them are over 100 years old. It was tempting to put one of the movements into a wristwatch case but 50mm is way too big for my wrist.

    They are all ticking merrily beside me as I type this. All is well.

    Thank you Rich for your technical proficiency and your generosity.

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  23. rdefabri

    rdefabri Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Sorry to resurrect an older thread, but I got the pocket watch bug. I just received this Elgin pocket watch, and I'm totally into it. It's a 1915 Model 5, Grade 294 in a Keystone Watch case made of "silveroid". It works, I just need a chain and I will start wearing it - so glad I have this!
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