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RIPPED OFF??

Discussion in 'United Kingdom' started by 355BOY, Mar 5, 2004.

  1. 355BOY

    355BOY Formula Junior

    Jan 28, 2004
    328
    the North
    Full Name:
    Mark
    About 5 weeks ago I finally fulfilled an ambition of buying a Ferrari and along arrived a beautiful 1997 F355 spider 1997 with Tubi and Fiarano pack and 14k on the clock.

    As it was my first Ferrari I went via a main dealer, who for legal reasons I shall not name. I found the car on the Ferrari Car Locator, which as most of you will agree is an excellent way to find your dream car.

    I noticed the disclaimer on the page about discrepencies etc and talked through the particular car I was interested in with the dealer.

    Happy with what I had heard I looked at other comparable cars, this particular car was a 2 owner car, most other cars were 5 or 6 even 8 owner, so obviously I was attracted to a 2 owner with 14k on it.

    On this basis I made my offer and after a touch of haggling a deal was agreed and a few days later the car arrived.

    Everything went great with the car, no problems at all.

    Yesterday morning I was opening my mail and the new logbook arrived from the DVLA.

    You guessed it, the car had had 5 previous owners.

    I'm kicking myself for not looking at the logbook when I viewed the car, sadly I took the salesmans word, although I do have a print off of the page on the Ferrari Locator which states 2 owners.

    I'm happy with the car, its awesome but feel I paid a touch over the odds with it having 5 owners, its a September 97 car and I paid 62k.

    Help and Advice would be appreciated on how I should approach this.

    Regards
    Mark
     
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  3. robinh

    robinh Formula Junior

    Jan 3, 2004
    622
    Cambridgeshire, Engl
    Full Name:
    Robin
    This is always a tough one. As with any complaint what you need to do is decide what you want out of your complaint. This needs to be reasonable to both parties, proabably more to them than to you because it many ways the fault also lies with you (sorry) and it's hard and expensive to take them to court and win.

    The goods were misrepresented to you, which does give you a legal basis for complaint but charging in saying to them they broke the law might be less productive than being reasonable, after all are you going to sell the car. Having five oners rather than two will not have a real affect on the cars value either.

    Best approach is not to ask for money, but something worth money to you but not as much to them. Good things to go for are free services, extended warrenty, accessories.

    Lastly, love the car, you bought it for what it is not for what you beleived it is
     
  4. exiges

    exiges Karting

    Feb 26, 2004
    199
    Midlands
    Full Name:
    David Brown
    It's difficult, because I suspect there's no written proof that 2-owners was a condition of sale, and also that the dealer may have said (under his breath) that it only had 2 owners "to the best of his knowledge".

    Whenever I've expressed an interest in a car, the dealer has always gone to fetch the log book, so I'm surprised this dealer didn't.

    Also, if you due sue, surely it's only for damages/losses, and it's questionable how much of a loss you've made (most Ferraris see many owners in their first few years)

    It's not my car, but if I were you I'd put it down to experience and just enjoy the car.. which is what it's all about at the end of the day.
     
  5. tonyh

    tonyh F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 23, 2002
    14,372
    S W London
    Full Name:
    Tony H
    I agree with Robin here. The car sold to you wasn't the one you thought you were buying so you should have a come back against the dealer who sold it.
    I also agree that a reasoned approach to the dealer is called for, get what you're looking for out of them and move on. It would be disastrous for their repution if word gets around the UK Ferrari community that they're misrepresenting vehicles sold from their shop.
    Good luck.
    Tony
     
  6. tonyh

    tonyh F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 23, 2002
    14,372
    S W London
    Full Name:
    Tony H
    P.S.
    Why wasn't the log book offered for inspection when you looked at the car?
    Tony
     
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  8. Wolfgang

    Wolfgang F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 8, 2003
    16,743
    Heidelberg, Germany
    Full Name:
    Wolfgang
    Hi Mark,

    bad news and I understand you very well.
    IMO there are 3 ways to handel this desaster.
    1.)Return to sender – full money back. Its no problem and he must take the car back; ask your lawyer!! I don`t know exactly the U.K. laws but the EU laws are on your site!
    You mention, that you have the print out of the adv. which says clearly 2 owners. Do you also have any witnesses regarding your conversation with the sales man in the store?
    2.) Reduce the price!
    Don`t take the offer for a free inspection! (Sorry Robin but please let me explain why)
    You never know, what they are realy doing/or have done with your car!!!!!!
    I have had my car at an offical Ferrari dealer for a big service.
    On the bill was f.e. listed: new plugs (still the old inside), new air filter (still the old inside) and horrible new cam belts listed -----still the old inside incl. the old rollers-----
    So just a big bill and nothing has been done!!!!!
    3.) Buy / get some free stuff from the dealer for your Ferrari:
    Tubi Exhaust, Challenge Grill, Floor Mats….or whatever he is offering/selling in his store.

    Good Luck

    Wolfarossa
    FORZA FERRARI
     
  9. 355f

    355f Formula Junior

    Nov 1, 2003
    305
    very frustrating; your going to have to put this down to experience.

    There is no law that provides protection in this instance- its a very grey area and in my opinion you would not win such a case. Its very easy to give advise such as contact your lawyer- but those that advise are not paying your eventual bill.

    Its unlikely that there is dimunition in value, many f cars have many owners and providing its a good car I think its better to stay friends with the dealer than upset them which could cost you a lot more in the long run!!

    Advertising mistakes are always made and really if the fact it was advertised as a 2 owner car was a pre-requisite for you then you should have checked that fact in the log book, owners manual, past records ectect. There are many places you could have got this information. Its rather like taking a dealers word for a full service history only to find when you acquire it there are services missing. Cant sue them for that! you have to look yourself.

    Just enjoy the car!
     
  10. 355BOY

    355BOY Formula Junior

    Jan 28, 2004
    328
    the North
    Full Name:
    Mark

    My fault totally tony, I should of asked, I suppose in some respects my legs were to weak just looking at the car :)

    I think my plan of attack will be let them make ME an offer as opposed to be demanding financial compensation.

    What a knob I am

    M
     
  11. robinh

    robinh Formula Junior

    Jan 3, 2004
    622
    Cambridgeshire, Engl
    Full Name:
    Robin
    In my experience this will not work - if you feel you are owed £100 then ask for that. If you ask them to make an offer and they say £10 it's very hard for you to get them to £100 and you'll feel even more pissed off.

    Start by ringing them, tell them you're not very happy and that you feel you are owed x (plus a bit) in compensation. Then go round and see them. If they didn't call back or offer an alternative you are starting with a tacit agreement for x (plus a bit) or something they then suggested and you can meet in the middle.

    The servicing is, as Wolfgang said, a little hit and miss but you can ask to see the replaced parts (which could be other cars old bits I know).

    You were the one missold, don't let the dealer missell you compensation and don't worry about saying who they are, there should be no legal problem there as long as what you say is correct and not defamatory
     
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  13. 355f

    355f Formula Junior

    Nov 1, 2003
    305
    I dont think your a knob at all!! I made other mistakes when I bought my first 355.

    What im saying is.... and this is with the benefit of my experience- dont piss the dealer off because any payment you MIGHT get will be eroded with what can be HUGE costs of running these cars.

    I appreaciate you have a warranty but the Ferrari warranty is not all it seems and many things are at the dealers discretion- I know!! so tread carefully.

    If it was me I would leave it!
     
  14. tonyh

    tonyh F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 23, 2002
    14,372
    S W London
    Full Name:
    Tony H
    Mark,
    you should be able to sort this amicably with the dealer.As has mentioned already, 5 owners of a 7 yr old car is not uncommon and shouldn't affect resale value too much.Pls keep us posted.
    Tony
     
  15. matkat

    matkat Formula 3

    Mar 18, 2003
    1,840
    Scotland
    Full Name:
    Dave McGuire
    This is interesting as I went exactly the same way to locate my new 355,unnoticed to me at the initial and subsequent inspection and after taking delivery a number of items were spotted and i asked for these to be dealt with but were subsequently not done ,paint chips and minor issues.But one of my friends noticed that the left and right exhausts were not lined up in that the l/h pair were approx 3 ins further in than the r/h on subsequent inspection inside the engine bay the heat shield was found to be damaged and the shock mount on the l/h pushed around 3 ins further fwd than the left,fortunately I had taken many photos of the car whilst in the showroom which confirms that this was an issue prior to me taking delivery.The car has been back to the dealer since Monday and I expect it back today so will keep you posted.Needless to say after spending 62k on this car I am far from satisfied with this situation,logically thinking when you put your car for a service the inspecting mechanic seems to pick up every minor defect known to man yet they apparently missed such a major issue as this bearing in mind that the formula 1 warranty check list has been ticked as the exhaust has no damage!!
    Best regards
    Dave McGuire
     
  16. 355BOY

    355BOY Formula Junior

    Jan 28, 2004
    328
    the North
    Full Name:
    Mark


    So much for the 100 point check?

    I bet you the work they do will be on the warranty, I bet you they knew about it prior to it leaving the showroom but waited for they complaint so the warranty picks up the charge not them.


    I've faxed them the copy I printed of their advert. I'll keep you posted.

    Mark
     
  17. 355f

    355f Formula Junior

    Nov 1, 2003
    305
    Well the fact that the exhaust was not aligned properly is a matter for a spanner and 5 mins of time. Acually because of the hge expanson that takes place they need to be adjusted now and again.

    In my experience the formula check list is a joke , the first car I bought had everything ticked and the reality was, leaking aircon, rattling exhaust bypass, leaking header falty alarm ectect.
    The fact that one pays 60k or 100k for a car does NOT mean yo get service which is better than a car that costs 10 times less. Best get out of the system when the warranty expires and find a good specialist
     
  18. wax

    wax Four Time F1 World Champ
    Advising Moderator

    Jul 20, 2003
    44,478
    SFPD
    Full Name:
    Dirty Harry
    Would a tort claim be applicable in this matter?
     
  19. F308 MAN

    F308 MAN F1 Rookie

    Jan 19, 2004
    2,907
    Isle of Man
    Full Name:
    Dave S
    i would imagine it is not financially viable to "pursue" this matter via the legal system, so if no compensation is forthcoming, let's all know who he is for future reference !
     
  20. matkat

    matkat Formula 3

    Mar 18, 2003
    1,840
    Scotland
    Full Name:
    Dave McGuire
    355F unfortunatly it is not just a matter of loosening and tightening some nuts and bolts there is clear indication that the lh pipes have been forcefully pushed back resulting in damage to exhaust components in the engine bay i said on my initial post that the heat shield was damaged(cracked and broken really) and the LH shock mount was pushed approx 3 ins forward of the right this is a fairly hefty piece of metal and is not just a matter of just re-aligning it,and further bare in mind this is just the damage I could see from the top no idea if anything else has been damaged I.E.the engine mounts or the exhaust manifolds and god forbid the chassis.
    Best regards
    Dave McGuire
     
  21. wazza

    wazza Formula Junior

    Oct 9, 2003
    614
    This will make you laugh.

    My beautiful brand new Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale
    Got registered with the DVLA as a .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Wait for it.
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .


    A FIAT.

    True the log book states it a Fiat.
    I've kept a copy. I'll think i'll get it framed under a photo of said car.

    What a F4cking p1ss take.

    Wazza
     
  22. MarkCollins

    MarkCollins F1 Rookie
    Owner

    Jul 2, 2002
    3,198
    South England
    Full Name:
    Mark Collins
    Wazza :)

    Mark,

    I also agree with Robin's approach and try the reasonable approach, suggest something that is cheap for them but expensive for you, say an extended warranty or a cam belt service etc.
     
  23. dapper

    dapper Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2003
    710
    Bristol, UK
    Full Name:
    Dave
    This is a funny old game. How often we read about main dealers being the cream and yet often they turn out to be shall we say 'economic with the truth'.

    I bought my first F car from Talacrest, a UK independant specialist, who corrected everything that was asked of them prior to sale, no qualms. They also went to great troubles of locating all paperwork and going through it all with me in detail. Mine was advertised as 2 owners and it was 2 owners.

    Some interesting responses to this thread, some very annoying. I wouldnt advocate dropping this and saying nothing, they will be just as likely to do similiar again to others. Your experience could be a result of those not saying anything in previous deals with this outlet.

    Regarding the 5 owners v 2, there are those of us who will give such differences a little more than passing second thoughts and it will therefore reflect on its value (more than the paltry 100 quid being discussed!) , particularly in just 7 years, a sad indictment of the uk prestige car market 'swapshop' mentality.

    I would DEFINITELY mention it to them, give them the opportunity to address some realistic correction to the deal (not £100). If they do not do this I would have no qualms about naming and shaming where I felt appropriate and to what level of detail I felt appropriate. After all you probably paid over the odds in any case being as they are a main agent, but thats ok as you trusted their reputation, I would do the same.
     
  24. 355f

    355f Formula Junior

    Nov 1, 2003
    305
    Im sorry to hear that but the heatshields crack anyway throught heatcycling. Although I can understand your frustration to fix this they will undo four bolts and realign the system. Just tack weld the heatshied. All the joints on the exhaust are spring mounts so the whole thing moves quite easily.

    Im not saying its right whats happened but the fix is a 10 min job!
     
  25. matkat

    matkat Formula 3

    Mar 18, 2003
    1,840
    Scotland
    Full Name:
    Dave McGuire
    It"s actually cracken/broken from where the bolts hold it on it is not heat damage but impact damage,you are misunderstanding the damage and as I have twice said now it is not so simple as to loosen it and it will spring back the whole l/h side of the spring loaded post/shock mount is seriously damaged instead of pointing straight up it lies at an angle of approx 45 degrees,maybe I am not being clear enough about this but the whole of the exhaust system is squint due to impact on the lh tail pipes.
    Best regards
    Dave McGuire
     
  26. 355f

    355f Formula Junior

    Nov 1, 2003
    305

    Im not defending this Garage whoever it is but how can one possibly 'name and shame'??? when unfortunately the buyer did not make the most basic checks himself?? I mean lets face it if you buy a car do you really believe what the salesman tells you?? they are there to sell it!!

    Surely, one would look at the service records?? speak to the previous owners??? if im paying over 60K I would ( and have done) check the car with ferrari UK?? I mean you cant go into a transaction like this and expect everyone to bail you out! this is becomming a USA style culture.

    reality is it makes no difference to value and lets assume you make a huge fuss what do you get? £1000?? thats 2 leaking sjhockabsorbers!! I regret to say that one will pay one way or another.

    All im saying is dont upset the dealer!!
     
  27. 355f

    355f Formula Junior

    Nov 1, 2003
    305
    Im sorry i misunderstood! dont want to upset anyone!!
     
  28. 355BOY

    355BOY Formula Junior

    Jan 28, 2004
    328
    the North
    Full Name:
    Mark


    I looked at the service records, looked at the MOT certs, talked to the salesman, looked all over the car, it was absolutely mint, not a chip on it.

    I made one error and didn't look at the log book.

    "everyone to bail me out"

    I haven't asked anybody to bail me out, I've asked for advice in a situation I am quite embarassed about.

    Mark
     

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