RM Ferrari TDF Sales Price Difference

The car at Monterey, 0585GT, is a 14 louver TdF, the most desirable variant? The TdF sold in London, 1335GT, is a 1959 car that has 1 louver and open headlamps too (something to do with Italian legislation regarding headlamps introduced in 1959?) which I'd guess are worth less than a car with closed headlamps. See BIRA's reply to Streetrod's question in post 446 in the TdF v SWB thread below.

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=375590&page=23

"14 louvers have always been massively more expensive with race history or not, than one louver open head light. Pretty much twice as much." BIRA quote.

0585GT was bought by the dealer Talacrest at Monterey and has recently been sold again. The asking price was £4.7 Million GBP.

It would be helpful if members in the know would comment on the differing values between the first, louverless TdF with the wrap around rear window, and subsequent variants with 14, 3 and single louvers in the sail panel and how much open headlamps affect the value, if at all. I don't know what the correct term is used for the headlamps on the 14 louver cars as they seem to drop down further in longer curvaceous wings which when looking at the wings front on, peak to a sharp point, and although covered, the headlamps are only slightly recessed.

Some good info and great pics (page 2) of TdF 0733GT owned by Fchat forum member TdF here: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=229504

 

The TdFs without louvers have similar lights to the 14 louver cars, which look very much like the 375MM Pininfarina Berlinetta.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

A 1959 car won't get you a Mille Miglia entry.

 

A 1958 TdF wouldn't either, would it? I realise you've probably answered as the OP's question is comparing a '56 to a '59 car.

 

Only 14 louvers and no louvers,,in theory but others have been spotted over the years...

 

I see. 0763GT with 3 louvers was in the 1989 Mille Miglia Retrospective. Seen in the vid below from 2.22.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIxoykFk4tM[/ame]

 

Ferrari tdf 0787gt was built Jan 1958

From what I have been advised, the car is inelidgible for the Miglia Mille

 

Hey, I once knew a guy who could turn an "8" into a "7" in a heartbeat. Jus sayin.

Dale

 

Congratulations on your TdF, Tom. Why is it referred to as a series II TdF, as in the RM description? If they are referred to or divided into series, shouldn't it be a series III with no louvers and Zagato bodied cars being series I, 14 louvers series II, 3 louvers series III and single louver series IV? Race history aside, I'm guessing, and maybe incorrectly, that qualifying for entry to the Mille Miglia, although a factor, isn't the major one that determines the value of a TdF. So how do both Mille Miglia qualifying no louver and 14 louver TdFs compare in value and also to the other variants?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNZ-zDmFy-A[/ame]

 

I believe around one half of the 3 louver cars, 18 in total, were built in 1957 the others in 1958

 

The RM description of 0787GT must be referring to the 3 louver cars as a whole as it says "The 12th of just 18 series II examples, this Tour de France..."

Barchetta 3 Louver Index: http://www.barchetta.cc/All.Ferraris/by-serial-number/ferrari-by-serial-number/model-index/model-summary/250-gt-lwb-tdf-3-louvre-index/index.html

 

The series II reference by RM Auctions for 0787GT is an error as they have revised the TdF series description of cars in their recent advert for 1335GT where the 3 louver cars are clearly the 3rd series of TdF. To their credit, the RM descriptions are always a pleasure to read and an excellent source of information. Conceptcarz, which may have been the source, or the other way around, also incorrectly refer to 0787GT as series II: http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/chassisNum.aspx?carid=12482&idNumID=7371


"The 250 GT LWB TdF bodywork steadily evolved during production and is now classified in four distinct series, most easily characterized by the rear c-pillars, or sail panels. Of 79 total TdF examples made between 1956 and 1959, the first 14 cars had no vents in the sail panel. Nine second-series cars featured 14 louvers on the sail panel, followed in mid-1957 by 18 cars with three vents on the sail panel, and a revised nose featuring recessed, covered headlamps. Starting in 1958, a final, fourth series with single-vent sail-panels was produced in a quantity of 36 examples.

In very early-1959, the LWB TdF received one final subdivision of minor modifications before giving way to an interim body suggestive of the forthcoming 250 GT SWB. This first group of 1959 250 GT examples was actually a subset of the 1958 fourth-series cars that featured one sail panel vent, to which they added uncovered headlamps mandated by a change in Italian regulations. The new uncovered lights were also adorned with chrome bezels, a decorative cue hinting at the berlinetta’s evolving identity as an elegant road car. A small handful of these 12 cars that were built for export were ordered with covered headlamps, reducing the known total of 1959 uncovered-headlamp series-four TdFs to approximately nine examples."

 

I think the early cars were simply ignored when "early" series numbering was created. We must remember that people who wrote the early books started with nothing, and did an excellent job if we really think about it.

It would be interesting to know more about the "change in italian regulations" that allegadly banned plexi covers. I suspect this may be a well recycled total misunderstanding, or at least it seems these regulations had little if any effect to other manufacturers. Open headlights may have been created for the simple reason that plexi covers create disturbing reflections and blur the focus of the light beam; they look neat when the car is parked in front of a café, but they are not very practical in the night.

Counting cars in each series is always a little problematic. It seems that 0895GT was the first 1 louver car, which would mean there were 17 three louver cars and 37 single louver cars. But hey wait, 0793GT seems to have been a special built with different dash and only 1 c-pillar vent, so count for 3 louver cars just seems to have gone down to 16...

One thing that makes things difficult is that many later owners have changed open headlight cars (this applies to both TdF and Cal Spiders) into having closed headlights, as the market finds them more attractive. There are often hasty claims that the cars were originally built that way, but I find such claims worth nothing without publicly shared proof. Goes without saying that some of the closed headlight conversions have been performed miserably wrong making the cars look like total fakes. Oh boy!

 

Whatever the 1959 Italian regulations were regarding the banning of closed headlamps must have been changed again for the introduction of the GTO. Was it just for racing cars as the California still had closed headlamps? It would have been nice to see a factory made SWB with closed headlamps though I do think that car's design works better than the others with open headlamps.

 

I have understood the open/closed regulation was related to where a car was to have first sale plus if a buyer wanted open headlights when they had that choice.

Jeff

 

....or was the California able to have closed headlamps because it was designed as or to be an export model?

 

as it was explained to us-when forraging for such event eligible cars: was this.....
ALL cars MANUFACTURED prior the the 1957 event..May, late May 1957 as I reacall....are "eligible for the retrospective event...."
Until recently, this(the) distinction of of post event production, was not a factor,
but, anything made AFTER the last event, cannot be considered for an event never held!
I makes sense to me....

 

There is the combination of several rules, most important being that only cars of same type that competed in period and date of manufacture before the cut of date, last MM race are eligible.
But definition of type is more complicated: one well known Maserati struggled to enter because it's body was different from the cars that competed. Or would an open car of a type that competed as a berlinetta would be accepted: logically no. So if TDF is a type, people may argue and in the past this argument was received. On the other hand, no single nor 3 louver TDF ever made it to the ramp in Brescia in period. Only no louver and 14 louvers.

 

Agree. The first 3 louver car (0723GT) was completed 3/aug/57, delivered 6/aug/57 and first raced 11/aug/57 in Kristiandstad. Best wishes, Kare

 

Just a question. Where do you put 0383GT [no louvers,wraparound rear window and 0393GT 11 louvers both completed in 1955.Plenty of TDFs were built thru 1957. John Fitch had to beat Gendebien's TDf to win the GT class in the 1957 M.M. I would think all TDFs should be eligible as a product line for the current M.M. events. tongascrew

 

They are not TdFs but 250 GT Europas.

Barchetta info on 0383GT: http://www.barchetta.cc/english/all.ferraris/detail/0383gt.250europagt.htm

Barchetta info on 0393GT: http://www.barchetta.cc/english/all.ferraris/detail/0393gt.250europagt.htm

They are also mentioned here. http://www.theautochannel.com/publications/magazines/forza/number8/pg52.frame

 

Gendebien did win the GT Class in the 1957 Mille Miglia in TdF #0677GT. He also won the 1956 MM GT Class in TdF 0503GT. Coming 5th overall, John Fitch won the 1955 MM GT Class in a Mercedes 300SL beating Gendebien who was also in a Mercedes 300SL.

http://www.barchetta.cc/english/all.ferraris/detail/0677gt.250gt.tdf.htm

 

Yes race history makes a significant market value difference. Even if the raced car is no longer so original as result of racing hazard. I personally have a different opinion and always chose race cars with more originality , even if less stellar race history. But I am, with Fred Simeone ( nice comparison...I am a benefactor of his museum so I can drop his name!) a firm believer in originality and less obsessed by race history if it comes at the price of originality, as I want to see the original craftsmanship. But again this is a dinosaur view,,,and not fully supported by today's market trends. Yet.