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Rock 'n Stroll . . . The Stroller Thread.

Discussion in 'F1' started by tifoso2728, Mar 1, 2017.

  1. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Three Time F1 World Champ

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    The pressure at Ferrari is enormous. You don't have the weight of just the team and fans behind you, but a relentless Italian media and the weight of an entire country rests on your shoulders.

    Vettel never got much love here, during his stint at Ferrari or before.

    He's nowhere near as bad as people here often think he is or as the last 2 seasons showed. Ferrari refused to do anything about the rear since 2019 and now only will do it after he's left. It's not just Vettel struggling with it, so is the Haas team (Who buy their parts from Ferrari), Leclerc also doesn't find it easy. Leclerc does an amazing job regardless. With the way Binotto handled the entire situation, Vettel quite clearly put in the bare minimum effort required. It's clear the distance the team took from him this year. Shameful behavior from the Ferrari team. I think next year we'll see a much improved, happier Vettel.

    That said, I don't believe he ranks among the top top drivers any longer.
     
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  3. Ferrari 308 GTB

    Ferrari 308 GTB F1 Veteran

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    Should be entertaining to see Stroll move his boy past Vettel somehow....look how good he is against the 4X champ!
     
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  4. DF1

    DF1 F1 World Champ
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    So Vettel is worth the salary paid and makes less than honest effort for the team?????? No he is just not that good. Lacks wheel to wheel race-craft and if he did not make a professional effort this year, should pay his gross salary back.

    Perez with smaller team and budget is a good example of professional effort!!!!!!!
     
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  5. william

    william F1 World Champ
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    I am wondering if we will see a Vettel rebirth next year at Aston Martin.

    Only a few months to wait for the answer...
     
  6. 375+

    375+ F1 Veteran
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    Not sure that he ever did.

    +1 A critical element of Larry's grand scheme IMO.
     
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  8. DF1

    DF1 F1 World Champ
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    Why would he. He now has to adjust to another car. Is it set up PERFECTLY for him? LOL. Will he get enough hugs? The team was bought for Lance by his father. That is on record with the purchase case recently resolved. If he does show more pace that will be good for what legacy is left.
     
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  9. jpalmito

    jpalmito Formula 3

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    Vettel destroyed the confidence with the team by cracking under pressure.
    2017 and 2018 cars weren’t real championships contenders but he should have been closer to Hamilton in the end.
    He remains the main culprit of the situation for me.
     
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  10. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Hmm, I see it different than you...He never had the fastest car. Yes the occasional weekend it was close to the Mercedes if all stars aligned. Vettel was originally signed by LdM who very soon after that was ousted from Ferrari, and the fun began. Instead of entering a team that was seeking stability, chaos quickly arrived. With a poor 2014 from the Ferrari team, Italians hopes where high with the signing of Vettel. There comes the first pressure on his shoulders. And instantly it's the weight of an entire country. The 2015 car was irrelevant in the championship, yet vettel did ok with it. More people where sacked between 15 and 16, no real stability still. With Marchionne some stability started to form but it was FAR from perfect. 17 was the first time Ferrari build a relatively decent car but as above, the stars needed to align for a result to happen...2018 it was more or less the same, with the gap between them and Mercedes staying the same.

    The pressure now was mounting as Tifosi, Italy and F1 fans all wanted to see Mercedes get challenged. When you ideally need Mercedes to make a mistake just to beat them, and even then you need your own team to not mess up after that, it can all become quite frustrating. Ferrari messed up, Vettel messed up...never mind the fact at this point Vettel was still making strategic decisions constantly (most often the right ones!) with that inept team, more and more pressure.

    It all truly fell apart when Marchionne died (same weekend as the German GP I believe). Suddenly the team was without a leader, again. Sliding off in the rain at low speed and the resulting criticism sure didn't help. Ferrari was once again rudderless.

    The 2019 car, whilst obviously very fast in a straight line, had a terrible rear end (same as the 2020 car), but the good engine hid the obvious problems. The wonderful Leclerc got to grips much better. 2020 Vettel clearly gave up after all support left him within Ferrari and he was clearly collecting his paycheck.


    Not looking for excuses, just offering my view.

    What this all showed was that Vettel was no machine like Schumacher was, who seemed impervious to criticism and handled it fantastically (people shouldn't underestimate the criticism he got in Italy after 1997, the overheating clutch in 98, breaking his legs in 99...He was very close to move to Mclaren for 2000!).

    Underestimate Vettel at your own will. 2010-2013 showed what he can do when he's comfortable in a car. He and Lewis in that Mercedes would be fighting tooth and nail for the WDC.
     
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  11. william

    william F1 World Champ
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    That weekend was a watershed moment in Ferrari's fortune, and they haven't recovered from it.
     
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  13. jpalmito

    jpalmito Formula 3

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    Bas, your argument is totally valid.
    With a nuance of importance.
    Vettel was hired by Ferrari to start a winning cycle in the same way as Schumacher did,now it is clear that he did not have the weight or charisma to steer Ferrari towards the right strategic decisions.
    The pressure is immense at Ferrari but this does not excuse its chronic inability to handle it.
    Baku 2017 and Singapore the same year were absolutely unacceptable for a four-time world champion.
    Moreover the long years of tranquility with an old Raikkonen will never allow us to know the true value of the car in 2017 and 2018.
    Looking back, Ricciardo would have been a better choice for Ferrari.
    2014 was not an accident.
     
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  14. DF1

    DF1 F1 World Champ
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    I will add that Vettel might not be the 'team leader' he thinks he is. At all. He never closed out a positive situation. He made mistake after mistake. He failed 2 titles by himself with mistakes the team and strategy could not overcome, after he had the mistakes, mainly early in a race when a mistake was made at the front on lap 1 as in Italy. The analysis done shows he made more mistakes, costly, than the team did. The team certainly did not show well either but on track that is all Vettel. The video collections as a summary of his mistakes are painful to see. Preventable many were.
     
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  15. 375+

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    That's when it all went to sh*t.

    +1
     
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  16. DF1

    DF1 F1 World Champ
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    His performance last year was a nice warning for this year. New team mate have done very well against Vettel. Consistently better. His response has been null. He leaves again. Fired this time.

    If after 2 more years no title or hint of title. Charles will be one to look around. He is marketable. That would be 4 years into his time at that point. FA lasted 5 years. That is long enough to wait.
     
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  17. ingegnere

    ingegnere F1 Rookie
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    Telling too is that RBR never even considered him for a return to their fold:

    Red Bull says Hulkenberg, Vettel never serious options for '21 F1 seat

    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/154300/horner-hulkenberg-vettel-never-serious-21-options
     
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  18. intrepidcva11

    intrepidcva11 F1 Rookie
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    extremely interesting hypothesis
     
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  19. PerKr

    PerKr Formula Junior

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    This is where Ferrari constantly gets it wrong. They hire the best driver they can find and think that will change things. Todt hired not only Schumacher but Brawn and Byrne and built a team that worked together towards winning titles. Since sacking Brawn and Schumacher, Ferrari seem to have issues with the whole "working together towards a goal" thing. Just like they did pre-Schumacher. It's no coincidence that they haven't won a WDC since 2007.
     
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  20. jpalmito

    jpalmito Formula 3

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    Totally spot on !
     
  21. ingegnere

    ingegnere F1 Rookie
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    Todt hired Brawn and Byrne because he wanted a design team locally (in Italy) and there really was nothing left in Maranello after they set up, then closed, the satellite operation in the UK.

    Seems they tried to get a star designer in Newey in the past. Since then they’ve built up their staff and Byrne is still there as a consultant. Short of putting a gun to Brawn’s head and forcing him back to Maranello, not sure what else they can do. Any other star designers floating around?
     
  22. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

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    Well, let's be fair: Vettel was the best choice available back then. Alonso suicided his career, Red Bull wouldn't let Ricciardo go, nobody would leave Mercedes... Vettel was available and was motivated to join a Ferrari in bad shape. I've never been his greatest fan, but even I have yo admit that he was the obvious choice.

    They tried but it wasn't meant to be. But they had to try. The mistake was giving him too many chances. Missing Ricciardo when he was available for 2019 probably was motivated to not spoil him more when he was already under question. A Ricciardo-Leclerc pairing would be interesting now.
     
  23. jpalmito

    jpalmito Formula 3

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    The success of Mercedes would tend to prove that the organization centered around a "star" is not the most effective.
    Toto’s great talent is to make the most of each individuality and succeed in making them work together.
    Easier said than done
     
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  24. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Whilst the need for a star driver is obvious, you are 100% on the money regarding the need to have the behind the scenes guys to be working together towards a goal. With my lengthy post elsewhere on the forum the other day that's what I was getting at: It all kept falling on Vettel's shoulders even though that's not his job. Schumacher was able to do it. I think Ross Brawn said a while ago that it really was Schumacher that ran the team in the end.

    Effectively forcing Schumacher out really did set a bad precedent by di Montezemelo. Had he stayed on he probably would've retired at the end of 2008. In all likelihood Brawn & co would have followed a different path when they would've left with Schumacher then. Brawn wouldn't have had the 2009 Brawn team. They in turn wouldn't have been bought out by Mercedes. In turn we wouldn't have had crazy dominance from the Mercedes team. It probably would've been a healthy mix between Ferrari, Red Bull and Mercedes powered Mclaren's....!

    Thanks LdM...
     
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  25. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Veteran
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    Who knows what would have happened but that is certainly an interesting speculation
     
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  26. intrepidcva11

    intrepidcva11 F1 Rookie
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    +1
     
  27. william

    william F1 World Champ
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    These days, the car is more important than the driver to succeed.
    Of course, you have to attract top drivers, but not go over the top; the engineers are more important.
    More money should be spent on the technical team and resources than on the drivers, IMO.
    Ferrari must build a cohesive technical team that will stay for years to come.
     
  28. DF1

    DF1 F1 World Champ
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    A structure not found at Ferrari. It appears they are not capable yet of adopting this model. They see the model each race in front of them. They had to remind the drivers last year about the team over them, the team being a greater consideration. Yet in structure and operational mode daily, does not seem to take shape and hold.
     

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