rough budget on 360 ownership

Kinda think you are going about this wrong.. but

belts are about 3k every 3 years
clutch should last 20k + miles if you are doing it right on na F1, more on manual, and it will range from 2800-5k depending on what is changed
1k per year is about right
f1 pump is about 3k, actuator is 10k just for part, maybe 2k for install
<- actuator is NOT common to fail either is f1 pump

 

Getting a 6 spd would simplify things.

The feeling of driving a Ferrari: priceless.

 

depreciation seems a little high, but to be conservative I guess your assumption is OK (inflation could lower that too- you're talking about a 6 year ownership assumption and a lot can happen especially given what has happened in the past 2 years).

Stick may cost a little more upfront in purchase price, offset by higher F1 maint.

Only other question (which I'll be dealing with in 3 years when doing my timing belts) is whether to factor in new variators- the parts are probably <$1K, and I'm not sure of how much in labor if they are done at the same time as the timing belts.

Technically, I guess you should throw in a new set of tires as these things don't last long, and MAYBE brake pads.

 

belts 2.5k - 3k
annual service 1k
clutch 5k
or get a manual and resurface with kevlar 2.5k
depreciation ?

 

Cheaper than a divorce.

Why worry about it, If you want something- buy it.

Its only money, worrying about expenses from a Ferrari make about as much sense as asking fuel economy...

Its a frivolous purchase to begin with. Noone needs one & if money or a budget is a concern- buy a Lexus. Things may or may not happen to any ferrari you buy, if that is going to stress you out, again start looking for a used Lexus.

My 2 cents-

 

My costs? Real costs? This is over the first year of ownership. This is a 2001 6 speed manual.

car $83,500 Transport cross country $2500 Insurance $1700/yr (Hagertys) VA car tax $2800.
First service immediately after purchase ($13,500): clutch including 6 bolt upgrade as well as hill t/o bearing and rear main seal, front ball joints, timing and other belts, fluids, transmission mount, mount tires and balance.
Service one year later: redo belts to replace variators, replace headers with Tubi insulated headers, replace secondary air injection pump and valves, replace oil sending unit, replace alternator bearing, motor/gear oil and brake fluid (no coolant change). (estimate $16,000)

Intimidated yet? This doesn't include the $3500 to repaint the bumpers and side skirts. Removed old yellowed paint protection film and paint came off with it, secondary to a ****ty repaint done on the bumper previously.

These cars are NOT cheap. I fix absolutely everything, so some people probably let other stuff slide and spend less. My car hums like it's new at 19,000 miles. It will be well-sorted for the next owner, but I don't intend to sell for a while...I like it too much.

Regards,
Pete

 

I think a lot has to do with what you are trying to accomplish as far as the car also. I mean, if you are trying to take a car with 15K miles on it and return it to the day it roll out of the factory, then it's going to cost and arm and a leg. If you look at what Peter has done to his car, he clearly spares no expense taking care of it, upgrading it and ensuring that it will run like a top.

However, if you are just trying to get a handle on budget, I think you are erring on the high side there. Yes, you can follow Ferrari's advice and do the belts every 3K miles. Or you can follow their previous advice and do them every 5K miles. Or you can follow their previous, previous advice and go every 52K miles. Or, you can use the suggestion from the company who actually makes the belts themselves (Dayco) and change them roughly every 60K miles. I don't buy the whole 3K mile thing. I think it's way over kill. It's even been suggested in the past that it could just be a means by Ferrari to help generate some revenue for their dealer network - who really knows. I'm sure Ferrari is just hedging their bets and figuring why risk a belt failure or a variator failure when we can suggest service in that area every 3K miles instead.

For me, I always figured about 15K to 20K miles between belt changes. I sold my car at 15K miles and was planning to do the belt change in another 5K or 10K miles if I kept it (my belts had already been changed at 5000 along with the variator upgrade, so they only had 10K on them total).

Beyond that, I think you are really just looking at oil/filter changes every 5K miles roughly. Probably also not a bad idea to change the gear box oil (and clean the filter) every 10K miles or so. Some would argue shorter intervals on the gear box oil, although more than one user around here has waited and still found the filter clear and clean. I think a lot has to do with what oil you run and if you have an F1 or manual gear box also.

Myself, I personally don't buy into flushing all the fluids every year (radiator, brakes, etc.) Maybe on the F1 system it makes more of a difference, but on my 360 (which was manual), I really didn't see any pressing need to flush out brake fluid that was working fine. Maybe bleed the brakes a little to remove air or water from the lines, but not go through flushing the entire system. Additionally, keep in mind that brake fluid which has boiled and gone through many heat cycles tends to have less water in it than new fluid. Some people who race keep old brake fluid, because once it boils, the water is gone and it compresses less.

The clutch will last on average about 15,000 miles before you start having problems. If you are very careful and drive properly, then I don't see any reason why you can't get double that from a brand new clutch. Just don't go around doing stupid stuff like smoking the tires on your $100K car and take the car out of gear (and foot off the clutch) at signals. Most of clutch wear occurs during take off from a stop. That's when the clutch does its hardest routine (getting a 3000 lb car moving from a dead stop when it doesn't want to move). How you engage the clutch here (before giving the car too much power) can have a definite impact on clutch life. Same with shifting under high RPM's. It's also important to make sure the P.I.S. setting is correct on F1 cars. For manual cars, you want to make sure the master/slave cylinders are properly bled so that you are getting a clean engagement and disengagement on each shift.

As far as depreciation vs. time/miles, I think a good rule of thumb is probably about 10K per 10K miles (at least to a point). However, keep in mind that the 360 has just recently taken a huge hit due to the 430's arrival and also the weakness in the economy. The 360 went from being a $120K car "all day long" to being an "$80K car on a good day" in a period of about 18 months. So a lot of the hit has already occurred. I personally don't think you are going to see many $40K 360's in 5 years. My best guess is that if you tack on 5 years and 15K miles to your car, it will go from being worth about $80K to being worth maybe $65K or so. Who knows for sure.

As far as service costs, I think you have to strike a balance between "fixing everything back to factory new levels" and "servicing the car without going broke". The main thing is changing the oil and filter - for both the motor and gear box. The belts hold up just fine as long as the car doesn't sit for years at a time. I don't buy into the 3Y/3K thing. I've seen belts taken off cars at 15K miles that look brand new.

The bigger concern I would have with a 360 is the variator issue. That might warrant being changed more often. However, make sure the person doing the work knows what they are doing in regard to belt tension, etc. I think over stressing an already weak area of the valve train on the motor can end up being a costly mistake.

Unless you just have money to burn and/or can't sleep at night, I think mainly oil/filter changes are what the car needs most (just like any other car). Granted, as the miles start to pile up, stuff like wheel bearings, steering links, etc. need attention. But flushing the cooling and brake fluid every 12 months? Unless you are tracking the car, I think that's a little excessive myself Of course, it is a Ferrari!

Ray

 

They better not last that long! Otherwise you're driving the wrong car. I'll admit I drove my 360 hard, but the Pirellis did not last me even 1500 miles on the street. I think the last set of rears was done at 1200 miles.

 

on my 355 and 360, I got about 5000 to 6500 miles per set on the rear tires. I didn't drive that hard however. Mostly cruising around town or the highway.

Ray

 

Whatever. That's the way it goes. It isn't a Hyundai!

 

How does brake fluid in a totally sealed system actively absorb water from the air?

Ray

 

Ray that's a good question; I don't exactly know, but it is told to me by my service guys that BF should be changed once a year because of this.

And I really himmed and hawwed about taking the car back to have the variators redone after just doing the belts last year, but my shop (who did the original variator recall on my car) has seen updated variator failures in the challenge cars, even with variators they redid themselves. Mr. Crall could comment more extensively, but I'm guessing that the variator issue is a design flaw (too small of a diameter threaded flange into the cam). I will replace them at each belt service from here on out.

I did not include the expenses that I do for cosmesis or comfort (like the new Sparco racing seats )). All of the services that I listed are there to maintain the car operating at top form OR prevent catastrophic damage.

 

Your brake fluid system is not totally sealed.

The reservoir/master cylinder cap is vented.

 

I am surprised with the accepted cost for an F1 pump. When mine went, i was offered a new one for £800 and a 3000 mile used one for £400 (call it $650 - nothing like the $3000 - 4000 that people here are talking about). Fitting it took only me 30 minutes, so I don't think the worry over these things failing is really justified

 

I have no experience with an Fcar at all but here is my shot at things. Depending on how you want to use the car and if you have an open check book policy or not. I'm finding out, I believe, a $65K gem of a 360 is not out there. They will need a bit of work/$ when bought. If you pay up front for a well cared for a serviced car with all majors completed then I believe you can have a few years of relatively inexpensive Fcar ownership. I'm not talking about starting a collection but someone who wants to buy their dream and use the car for a few years without breaking the bank. Of course something major can go wrong and you need to be prepared for the expense. However, it is really unreasonable to buy a car with all campaigns addressed, belts addressed, fluids changed, etc., and have it and use it (about 3-5-K miles per year for 2-3 years) and not run into a major expense? Understand in these 3 years will be the expected fluid change, oil change, etc and the obvious depreciation and being on the timeline for a major service to be completed.

Guess I am trying to plan out my Fcar purchase and tolerance for expenses. Fluid changes, oil changes, belt service all is within reason, even if needed annually. But to think in 3 years time a major breakdown and repair will occur is unacceptable I think. These are the pinnacle of cars and the accepted failures, and unjust repairs confuses me a bit. Maintenance is one thing, but to have to budget mentally and financially for major repairs when not tracking a car and putting a gentle 5K miles a year on seems a bit crazy to me.

Just thinking out loud but seriously, you should be able to buy a recently serviced no story 360, take good car of it and have 3 years trouble free fun.

--JK

 

As you point out, there are not many $65K "cream puffs" floating around as far as the 360 goes. A well kept example of a 360 will still set you back probably $75 to $80K in today's market (although I haven't been keeping close tabs on the market recently). For a good example 360, with all services done, etc. you may even expect to pay more. No matter how nice the car is, once you get it, there will likely be things you want to do with it.

Keep in mind, every owner has their own idea of what service should be. One person might just change the oil/filter, while another may spend thousands of dollars on preventative maintenance and/or upgrades.

Myself, because I grew up working on cars and building motors, I tend to take the stance that "if it's working, don't mess with it". Other people can't sleep at night if their belts have gone 3000 miles and haven't been changed. With cars (and motors) you can put them together, take them apart, magnalfux them, x-ray them, etc. However, even with all that, sometimes something you never expected will happen. Just look at any F1 race. Those guys go through every atom of the cars almost and yet sometimes a motor will just fail on the track or something will snap, etc. If you try to head off every possible malfunction, you will drive yourself nuts and end up in the poor house.

My attitude has always been to drive the car and enjoy it. If it starts doing something wrong, then fix it. If it needs service, then service it. In many cases, there really isn't a lot you can do beyond changing the oil and fluids. Sure, you can change belts and all those sorts of things, but that is not always a guarantee that something still won't go wrong. Keep in mind, when you dig into a car or motor, you are in some respects opening a potential pandora's box. Sure, you change the belts. Sure you install a new clutch. But if the work is done wrong or someone doesn't put something back correctly, you can introduce as many new problems as you solve (and the older cars become, the more this tends to hold true).

Can you buy a 360 and drive it 5K or 10K miles without any sort of major expense as far as service goes? Yes, you can. As long as you change the oil and filter and make sure there is water in the radiator, etc. then at some point it's just a car. I think on the 360, the two most important areas to address are oil changes for the motor (with filter) and also oil and filter changes for the gear box. Also, keeping on top of the clutch wear (especially if you have an F1). The other thing I would suggest is to immediately lose the OEM battery and install a dry cell 925 (or similar size) type battery. Having a top notch battery is very important to the electronics of the 360 and can head off some nasty problems that could crop up in association with a battery failure, jumping, etc.

The other thing is installing an after market exhaust. I think running a Tubi - and even hyper flow cats - is a good idea, since it allows the motor to breath more freely. I know on my 355 it greatly reduced the operating temperature of the motor as well. Along those same lines, I would suggest the rear challenge grill and freer flowing air filters too.

Finally, allowing the car to come up to proper operating temperature is very important. With my 360, I kept the RPM's under 4000 for the first 5 miles or so. I drove like Ms. Daisey until the engine oil came up to full temp. I also always allowed the car to warm up for about 60 to 90 seconds before pulling out of the garage.

The 360 is a great car, but like anything else, you need to take good care of it and not abuse it.

Ray

 

Hi, I'm new to the site and really appreciate all your input as I am seriously thinking of embarking on Ferrari ownership.
I live part of the year on the Island of Jersey and part of the year in France where we have a second home. Had intended retiring to the latter but don't like the politics.
I'm close to selling my 1991 Alfa Romeo SZ Zagato and want a replacement that will give me some fun and also accumulate a little value. My SZ has only 7k miles from new!
I'm interested to read the suggested running costs of the 360 and wondered how you guys viewed my position. I shall be using the car in France over the summer months but virtually laying it up over the winter. Am I likely to get better longevity out of the parts on the car in this situation or will they deteriorate sooner through neglected use.
Can I do anything to prevent this? What preventive maintenance should I carry out before laying up for the winter.
The alternative is a Porsche GT3 but one Porsche is like another.
Appreciate your views.
Thanks.