Rough cold start - What if it is not the Auxiliary Air Valve? | FerrariChat

Rough cold start - What if it is not the Auxiliary Air Valve?

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by schelle_pelle, Feb 4, 2022.

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  1. schelle_pelle

    schelle_pelle Karting

    Oct 22, 2021
    161
    Berlin, Germany
    Hi there,

    my newly acquired Mondial 3.2 is running a bit rough on cold start. Means: Car starts cold but does not go into high idle. Instead it runs with below regular idle speed (7/800 RPM) and therefore it runs a bit rough. I have to support it by revving up the engine. It reacts good to the increased throttle. It may actually die if I dont support it with some extra throttle.
    Obviously I suspected the Auxiliary Air Valve 0 280 140 168. So I tested it. Internal resistance measured at the poles is 41.5 Ohms. At room temperature the window of the AAV is 3/4 closed. When I put 12V on it the AAV warms up and the window closes completely. When I detach 12V it opens again to 3/4 closed.
    So this AAV seems to act like it should?

    So… What else could possibly cause this reduced cold start idle? Any ideas?

    Best regards
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  2. Cantering1

    Cantering1 Karting

    Mar 11, 2021
    50
    33331
    Full Name:
    Miguel A Serrano
    Check all electrical ignition components. They are also affected by tempreature and contraction/expansion.
     
  3. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
    25,146
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    Steve Magnusson
    #3 Steve Magnusson, Feb 4, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2022
    Not sure that that AAV is actually the correct one for your car, but it's doing the generally right thing so it's not causing this issue (and is probably OKish).

    What version 1986 Mondial 3.2? Euro, CH, US?

    What is the color of the fuel distributor? Silver or black?

    Can you post a photo showing more of the whole engine bay?
     
  4. schelle_pelle

    schelle_pelle Karting

    Oct 22, 2021
    161
    Berlin, Germany
    It should be the right one… 168 is very specific for the 3.2 Mondial or 328. But hey, you never know.

    It‘s a 03/1986 EUR 3.2 with silver distributor.

    I was maybe thinking if the plug for the AAV does not provide 12V? The test I did with the AAV was directly to the battery.
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  5. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
    25,146
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    Steve Magnusson
    Certainly wouldn't hurt to confirm that the AAV internal heater is correctly getting +12V whenever the engine is running. However, I believe that symptom would be more "idle is high at cold start-up and takes a long, long time to come down" (as the AAV should still eventually close just by absorbing heat from the coolant expansion tank). The silver fuel distributor (a K-Jet without Lambda system) removes a lot of other things that might have caused a symptom like you reported. IMO, the first suspect to investigate in your case would be the WUR behavior -- confirm the cold control pressure and the warm control pressure are in spec as having the right relationship for cold vs warm is essential for cold-running to work properly (almost unfortunately, since the mixture gets tweaked up in the warm condition, the warm control pressure can be bonkers yet the car run fairly well when warm, but cold-running won't be good if the cold vs warm relationship is bonkers). Good Hunting!
     
  6. FamilyCar

    FamilyCar Formula Junior
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    Sep 26, 2007
    662
    Seattle, Wa
    Full Name:
    Peter Goodall
    Could it be the frequency valve relay? Mine fell out of its base and the car ran very rough when cold but was almost OK when warmed up. The relay is behind the carpet on the right side of the trunk (looking forward). The frequency valve itself should buzz when the car is running. It is on the fuel distributor--or does this car not have one since it's Euro...
     
  7. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
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    Steve Magnusson
    Euro = K-Jet without Lambda = no Protection Relay and no Frequency Valve.
     
  8. moysiuan

    moysiuan F1 Rookie
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    Nov 1, 2005
    3,645
    Canada
    Does it run/idle ok after it warms up?
     
  9. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

    Feb 1, 2011
    3,859
    Some common "rough running" issues:

    Clogged filter screens in WUR
    Clogged filter screens in fuel injectors
    Plug wire resistance increased
    Arcing wire extenders
    Spark plugs fouled
     
  10. schelle_pelle

    schelle_pelle Karting

    Oct 22, 2021
    161
    Berlin, Germany
    Thank you guys for your valuable input! Steve, you have a good point, that the AAV does not make much sense, if I have reduced cold start RPMs. The valve is more likely reducing the RPMs by closing its window.
    Yes, after a couple of minutes the car runs perfectly fine. Stable RPMs at 1.000, steady revving. No issues.
    So I am now on the hunt for the WUR! There is plenty of info on that thing but it seems to require some equipment to test and adjust it. Rebuilding seems quite doable and reasonable.
     
  11. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
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    Steve Magnusson
    No! Make the measurements before buying/fixing an expensivecomponent (or have a Shop make the measurements -- Shops that work on classic Volvo, MB, or Porsche should be able to do it). The problem might be something else...
     
    schelle_pelle likes this.
  12. moysiuan

    moysiuan F1 Rookie
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    #12 moysiuan, Feb 5, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2022
    Good to know the car runs well when warmed up.

    Maybe the engine coolant tempertaure sensor is corroded or covered in deposits. It is among the things that direct the fuel ecu computer in start up and warm up enrichment. You can check the resistance with an ohm meter, it should read about 2500 ohms at room temp, and 340 ohms at 80 C. It is under the intake plennum on the left-ish side, might need to remove the oil filter to get in there to unconnect the harness. You can remove it to test or replace with a ratchet and extension.

    (The orange in the pic is the oil filter, the brass sensor is peeking out just behind the throttle cable tube.)
     

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  13. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
    25,146
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    Steve Magnusson
    #13 Steve Magnusson, Feb 5, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2022
    It's a 1986 euro Mondial 3.2 (K-Jet without Lambda) -- no injection ECU and no coolant temperature sensor(s) nor coolant thermoswitch related to the injection system's operation.
     
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  14. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

    Feb 1, 2011
    3,859
    The WUR is pretty bulletproof. Excepting the filter screens which can get clogged with old fuel varnish. This is a problem throughout the K-Jet system. Fresh fuel is a must. Cleaning the screens will require disassembly. You'll understand why after you've done it. Adjusting the WUR is a bit of a lost art. And it is key to the system. It should be called FMR - Fuel Mixture Regulator.

    Rough running often has multiple causes.
     
  15. moysiuan

    moysiuan F1 Rookie
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    Nov 1, 2005
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    Ah yes, for some reason I thought it a 1988.
     
  16. Milanoguy

    Milanoguy Rookie

    May 27, 2011
    7
    Houston, TX
    Full Name:
    Guy Milan
    Paging schelle_pelle

    Is there an end to this story? Did you resolve the cold start issue? Did you have to dismantle the warm up regulator? Inquiring minds (like mine) want to know

    Bye
     
  17. schelle_pelle

    schelle_pelle Karting

    Oct 22, 2021
    161
    Berlin, Germany
    Hi,

    thanks for asking! I am pretty sure it is the WUR that is not acting as it should. I did not repair or send it to a specialist yet - that is something for the winter. I will check those fuel screens and will replace the filter that goes into the fuel distributor.
     
  18. Alden

    Alden F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 25, 2010
    2,913
    Central Florida
    Mine was doing the same thing, I replaced the cold start relay and fuse all all was well, never any more problems. I f I have said this before, excuse me, but I ALWAYS start diagnosis with the fuse/relay board. Seems like 90% of the time, with anything electrically connected, that is where the problem is. I do fuse box "maintenance" every five years now and I always find a bunrt connector, replace ALL the fuses and relays with new, clean the board, fix bunt connections, spray liberally with Deoxit (Great stuff!) Everything works better, faster, brighter!
    Alden
     
  19. schelle_pelle

    schelle_pelle Karting

    Oct 22, 2021
    161
    Berlin, Germany
    Well... As per the 86 Euro 3.2 I think I luckily don't have a cold start relay. But will do a fuse and relay check of the fuse board.
     

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