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Rough start/running/stalling issue. Tests to run to diagnose it?

Discussion in '360/430' started by ketel, Jun 18, 2021.

  1. BrettC

    BrettC Formula 3

    Aug 13, 2012
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    Sounds like back to basic's, gas, spark, oxygen. Is it running on only one bank? no slow down light eh? coils don't all go bad that quickly.....hmmm. Nor do spark plugs. My fuel pumps started leaking at 40K but no running issue. Battery/electrical issue sounds right. If you can, do the relearn procedure after cutting off the switch for 24 hours. see if that helps. Grounds are another issue with this car. check all those connections as well as the cables at the alternator. HTH
    Brett
     
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  3. one4torque

    one4torque Formula 3

    May 20, 2018
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    Agree w Brett, start checking the basics off the list—

    fuel
    Gas quality?
    Fuel pressure each bank?

    spark
    Heat gun or water squirt bottle test each cylinder to ensure combustion.

    codes— scanner
    ltft- will reveal a lot of info — rich lean???

    battery—.
    Full charge?
    Good connection?


    Drive cycle?
    Consider reset… then run through complete readiness reset.

    All of this troubleshooting adds to your f car knowledge tool box… and if you are successful keeps you out of retail bank account redux!
     
  4. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Veteran
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    Fair enough. As it was first on your code list, I thought it might be possible. I don't know if the right bank ECU alone is responsible for putting on the gas tank symbol or either can generate it, but the progressive nature of the fault seems to be pointing in the wrong direction. The only way to completely discount it would be to compare the signals on pin 11 of the inboard connectors on the L/R ECUs.

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  5. ketel

    ketel Formula 3
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    I have no idea if it's running on one bank. No, no slow down light

    If by "relearn procedure" you mean re-plugging the battery back on, clearing the codes, and drive cycling the car, I have done that several times already. If that's not what you mean, then I don't know what the relearn procedure is
     
  6. ketel

    ketel Formula 3
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    Gas should be fine now. Any old gas in the system would have been burned up by now.

    As to fuel pressure, I have no idea. I suppose I will need to learn to check that since I've never done that before.

    I've changed plenty of spark plugs but never performed any of these tests you're suggesting.

    I've never done a ltft test. Any links?

    Thanks

    ketel
     
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  8. one4torque

    one4torque Formula 3

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    Fuel pressure can be checked w a fuel
    Pressure gage from Amazon. If you are not comfortable doing this get w a local buddy or ind mechanic.

    if you don’t have header blankets.. you can take a squirt bottle w water and spray water on each header outlet to confirm each cylinder is firing. This will confirm spark, compression, fuel.
    A heat gun can do this.

    ltft- aka long term fuel trims. Obd will read this real time. Ideally +\- 0-3%. Showing ecu is not having to compensate for lean or rich condition.

    suggest you team up w a local car nerd guru or indie shop to diagnose. I would help if you were local. Gl!
     
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  9. BrettC

    BrettC Formula 3

    Aug 13, 2012
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    Running on one bank is kinda.....blum, blum, blum...hit gas not much response...blum, blum blum may get faster but engine not firing on one side of motor. ECU can do that if it thinks cats too hot or whatever....that usually is the slow down light issue. Try the water bottle idea....I've never heard that but makes perfect sense. If one side is cold...ecu shut down issue. Relearn is drive cycle in owners manual...certain speeds for certain times etc to help the ecu relearn the fuel trims, etc.
     
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  10. ketel

    ketel Formula 3
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    I will order a fuel gauge off Amazon. And watch a few YouTube videos.

    Of course, these tests assume I can start the care safely, which is a big assumption right now.
    ketel





     
  11. one4torque

    one4torque Formula 3

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    Don’t drive around w a cheap non liquid filled fuel
    Pressure gage installed .. they can leak.

    I just use it to spot check key in engine off… and engine idle fuel pressure.

    just be sure each bank had fuel pressure.

    the squirt bottle test is fairly common w the ls crowd. Easy check for coil sp plug fuel inj etc… look for a cold cylinder.
     
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  13. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    A 360 is not a car to learn how to fix your car. Air, spark and gas. Fuel pressure is a good idea. How do the fuel pump fuses look? Usually when a motor shorts or is about to die you can see changes at the fuse.. is it darkened or the metal changed in color? (Fuel)When we’re the coils changed last? What is their date stamp? (Spark) do the plugs have the usual white ash? (Buy 8 and change them out) look in the cylinder while they’re out. MAF? Buy some cheap ones on eBay and use them for diagnostics..

    edit: see above..
     
  14. clean512

    clean512 Formula Junior
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    Feb 4, 2010
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    If you need i have brand new bosch maf that i never used you can try. I'm over in Burlingame
     
  15. mello

    mello F1 Rookie
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  16. ketel

    ketel Formula 3
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    - I will check the fuel pump fuses.
    - There is nothing in the service records indicating when the coils were last changed, so I don't know. Where is the date stamp on the coils?
    - I have not yet pulled the plugs, but will check as to their wear. They are only a few thousand miles old per the service history
    - I cleaned the MAFs last week. No difference.

    ketel
     
  17. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    When you pull the plugs, take a look on their appearance. Smell them.. fresh fuel smell (after cranking for a minute)? Black? Fresh plugs are a good idea regardless of the miles or condition of the car. Always start simple and work to complex. It's usually something simple... usually.. :)
     
  18. brookliner7

    brookliner7 Formula Junior

    May 5, 2018
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    Check my video and see if this sounds similar to your car. It progressively got worse.




    I tried a lot of the things people have mentioned in this thread, but I fixed my problem when I Replaced a MAF.
    Cleaning did absolutely nothing for me.
     
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  19. one4torque

    one4torque Formula 3

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    Listen to Elvis!
     
  20. ketel

    ketel Formula 3
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    Yes. Very similar to my symptoms. My 360 will fart and burble and stall the first few times I try to start it.

    Besides just reflexively replacing the MAFs entirely, is there a test I can run to determine if the MAF sensors are bad?

    ketel
     
  21. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Veteran
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    yes.. unplug them (one at a time) to see what changes there are. An engine with no MAF data is sometimes better than a poorly operating one. The ECU has a backup mode with loss of MAF data.

    Did you clean your MAFs with proper MAF cleaner? Anything else (including throttle body cleaner) and you're asking for trouble .
     
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  22. ketel

    ketel Formula 3
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    Yes, I used MAF cleaner.

    I'll try to start the engine and see if it runs any better with the MAF sensors unplugged.

    ketel
     
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  23. BrettC

    BrettC Formula 3

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    Any luck? My experience with MAF's is don't clean them, just replace.
     
  24. flash32

    flash32 F1 Rookie

    Aug 22, 2008
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    My experience is that unless a larger amount of gunk is on them .. cleaning them didn't seem to make a difference

    When they are sub 100 in many cars ..easy to just replace..same work ..but with Ferrari tax and all .. a cleaning is worth a try

    I chased down a lean condition on two different cars/makes after very hot dor a few days and then just replaced maf and bingo ..no more issue

    The amount of grams of air as indicated on a scanner real time help me a lot to figure out it was the maf

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
  25. FatMike

    FatMike Rookie

    Jul 4, 2018
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    #47 FatMike, Jun 24, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2021

    How much MAF cleaner? Spray many many small bursts.

    Also clean the MAF electrical contacts with electrical contact cleaner. I just did that to my new to me 360 and I perceive a difference.

    I still think your issue is the old fuel that ran through the system.

    /
     
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  26. ketel

    ketel Formula 3
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    Aug 6, 2007
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    I'll tackle tomorrow. My order of operations will be: (1) check fuel pump fuse and relay to make sure they're good; (2) turn key to "II" position to see if I can hear the fuel pump working; (3) check fuel pressure.

    If those check out then it's not the fuses or fuel pump. Will then perform the MAF disconnection test and clean MAF sensor contacts.

    If none of those work, I'll order new MAF sensors. Any good sources/links for reasonable MAF sensors for the 360?

    ketel
     
  27. Qavion

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    The pumps don't start working until the engine starts turning. 40 rpm's to be precise. Your previous car also operated in a similar fashion. The crank sensor signal is responsible for measuring rpm.

    I was originally thinking that the crank sensors were causing your problem (they can progressively fail), but you don't appear to have any fault messages for these.

    You can jumper the relays to run the pumps.
     
  28. Qavion

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    ... sockets 3 and 5.

    Note that live battery power is on pin 3, so expect some sparks when hooking up the jumper (unless you have your battery cutoff switch in cutoff).
     

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