Ok I was wrong! He is trying to dance! Got this from the 'Ask Rubens' section at http://www.barrichello.com.br
Hmmm, clever reply ... but yes many are fast but I say again it is MUCH harder to be a race winner than just a fast guy, so even Webber has to step up and grab that first win IF he is going to worry MS. I can remember the mental anquish that I put on myself with my first club win ... they will have the same problems, etc. ... at every level they have traversed. It is about proving to YOURSELF that you really have got what it takes. Things like the first pole, first podium all give you confidence but nothing cements it like the first win and because you want it so much. If you end up leading with a genuine chance the mental demons start talking to you ... you start missing apexes, you start hearing noices from the car that make you think it is breaking, etc. ... once you have done it, it is never as hard again because you have that previous experience/proof that you can do it to back yourself up with. So those young guys are racing MS, but also themselves ... yep some are fast but just like passing, it is easy to catch the car in front, but bloody hard to pass ... I guess then what I meant, is todays F1 grid is low on experience and real race winning talent, not low on fast guys (although I believe there is only about 5 really fast guys anyway ). Pete
Low on race winners? I'm not even sure I see that argument anyway.... DC, KR, JPM, RS, FA, JV (and previously JT)...Renault/McLaren/Williams all have race winners. I guess BAR is the only one lacking, even so...they never looked to have a "real" chance anywhere this year except maybe the last race. The Ferrari car is just *that* fast.
True. In the 90's we had 3 x WC's racing for many years ... now that is REAL race winning talent, no virgins there The 60's was like that too. One of the reasons why F1 really needs Villeneuve or Hakenin back is to have that depth of experience, drivers that know from experience what it really takes. Pete
And we have 2 now. The 2nd one isn't even fast. I'll take JPM/Button/Webber in a Williams over JV. The amount of WCs doesn't determine the ferocity of the competition or the closeness of the races. Last year(2003) was the best racing in awhile. We had 2 WCs then. Only 1 was a factor. 1 WC competing against two other extremely good drivers with potent machinery. The title (or lack thereof) which each has doesn't really mean all that much. You seem to be focusing on symbolism a lot. I'll take real points and true speed over titles or "experience". JPM & KR have no title but I don't think anyone is counting either out in next years championship. Anyone who thinks that Button/Webber aren't going to be a major factor(and depending on the car, world champion hopefuls) next year because they haven't won a race yet is dreaming.
I agree with many of your points except this one (): Oh yes it does ... remember Kimi's performance at Suzuka last year, he crumbled under the pressure of his first WC. He was so slow that even DC was able to follow him home. I bet that would not have occurred if Kimi was a seasoned WC, he would have pushed RB all the way home ... instead of trailing home a distant 2nd. That is what I am talking about. MS has this on his side. Pete
2nd is considered so slow (well, 3rd if you count JPM kicking everyone's ass and then having reliability problems)? Getting 2nd place to the #1 constructor...isn't that expected? Especially when he had the 3rd fastest car.
Okay we are on a different wave length. To win the WC all Kimi had to do was beat RB at Suzuka as MS had practically eliminated himself. Kimi though was unable to perform that weekend at his usual high level and even DC was able to push him all race long. That is what I am talking about. Kimi had a REAL chance at the WC title and blew it, he only had RB to race, but could not and did not rise to the ocassion. So I am not talking about being slow or fast but being a winner ... different thing. With more experience Kimi will get there, but he was not ready last year (2003) and this took the pressure off Ferrari and MS. Pete
Yes, I definitely approach it differently than you. Relative point totals matter much more to me than the actual title itself. You think that if KR had one a championship previously to that race he would somehow have been able to step it up. Maybe so, no one will ever know. However, getting 2nd place in an F1 race means you are fast. Very very fast. There are physical limits which can not be broken though, if the Ferrari car is being driven at the peak you could have freaking superman in another car, it won't matter. The Ferrari is faster (or last year with Williams). I truly believe than unless RB made a big mistake, Kimi could not have passed him.
Oh, sorry, I meant in relating to driver skill. For example, last year, we had three people in contention with 2 races left. Winning the title does not neccessarily mean you are definitively a better driver than someone else. Reliability issues certainly cloud things up. DWC is effectively the best driver/car pairing. CWC is the best 2 car/driver pairing. Achieving the most with what you given, that is what I see driver skill as. You think less of Kimi because he could not get the WC last year. If the roles between Kimi/MS had been reversed I doubt MS would have been able to pull out the win.
Yep agree. But a winning driver is not always the fastest driver. Look at Prost (one of my heros) knows exactly how to win, but was hardly ever the fastest ... but knows perfectly how to get the most out of his equipment to win the race or get the MOST points to win the WC. You see to win sometimes you have to SLOW down ... this is something that you only learn after you have won a few times. In the end it is not the fastest but the most successful (or winning driver) that takes the cake and eats it too ... bit like it is not the driver that screams into the first corner first, but the one that takes the chequered flag. Pete
Judging from this and several previous posts it is clear you did not follow F1 pre....oh 1999. I would put just about any F1 year up against the current sorry collection of kids. I agree with PSK that there are about 5 true drivers in the field, maybe less. Weber is cut from the same Schuey cloth. He can always somehow make a piece of crap fast enough to get points. He will be devastating next year if the Williams is halfway good. Button will be left scratching his head, as he will not be able to catch him. Alonso is work in progress - still too erratic to figure. I really like Kimi, but I do not think he has the passion of Mika (although similar personalities). Unless he has a car that brings him home, he will not win the tight ones. He may get better over the next few years. JPM is his own worst enemy. He may qualify well, but Kimi will kill him in a race. Unless the car is absolutely, positively, unquestionably PERFECT - he will not do squat. He has not "proven" sh$$ to me. THere are maybe 3 other drivers that deserve that spot over him. OMG, bringing up Suzuka last year?!?! When you are running different fuel/stop strategies from the rest of the field, you WILL be fast if you have to stop an extra time - or two! It was plain he was out there to slow or stop (read take-out) MS or RB, for Kimi. THAT drive had NOTHING to do with his ability. THere are some young guns that look promising, but still too soon to tell. I know I am in the minority, but I think we have not heard the last from JV. If Sauber can come up with some miracles in the wind tunnel, it could be interesting for the 2nd and 3rd teams. Jim
You are right. I am new to F1. However, as with all forms of life, I feel that social evolution will create an environment where excellence is constantly tested. Drivers are competition bred at a younger age and with a larger pool of talent the amount of good drivers advancing through the field increases. I personally think one a 5-10 lap basis there are definitely a large amount of drivers which can perform well against MS in the same car. Performance over a whole race distance might tie more into that whole "experience" issue I was talking to PSK about. Your tirade against JPM is funny, really. If he does well, it's the car. If he does poorly, it's his lack of skill.
Mark Webber started racing when he was 14. Villeneuve 17. Sato 19. Comparing them with the ones who started before they were 10, there really isn't an enormous difference. IMO, I believe it's as much about mental attitude as it is about starting from a stupidly young age, or that mystical thing called "talent." Michael has always had the mindset of a champion. So has Webber.
I think it's fairly obvious why Button and Webber have yet to win a race - they haven't perfected their victory rituals! MS has his leap, RB has his silly dance and sometimes cries, Kimi looks bewildered and a bit bored. Webber and Button need to spend the winter training and rehearsing their podium rituals! Maybe Webber should grab the second place driver and waltz to the tune of 'Waltzing Matilda'. Button could try unicycling and juggling on the podium - that'd get him in the newspapers! Once they have this important part of a drivers repertoire sorted they'll be fine!
I think there is a big difference between social evolution and raw driver ability, capable of performing at F1 levels. Kids have been racing karts since the invention of the Briggs and Stratton. How can they be "competion bred" at an earlier age? For that matter, racing was much more affordable years ago. Sorry, but a false analogy. The difference between the times I am refering to (in F1 history) and today is that the drivers of years past had their mettle tested in numerous and varied series. They had to truly prove they deserved a race seat at the F1 level. AND, the good ones could, and did, do it all. Give them anything with 4 wheels (and sometimes 2 - Surtees!) and they could deliver. Today a kid shows potential in a kart and he is immediately hailed as the next Senna - grab a sponser and off to F1 we go. THAT is why we have such disparity between the top drivers and the wanna-be's. History has shown just how hard it is to perform in F1. Just ask Michael Andretti, (or JPM for that matter) or the many, many, F3000 Champs who could not quite pull it together at the F1 level. The Formula 1 roadside is littered with many-a series champion - who were slated to be the next big thing! At least the majority of the drivers of 10 or so years ago, and before, deserved to be behind the wheel. Please do not think I was taking a shot at you being a recent fan - because I think that is great! The only thing I have issues with is your comparison of driver ability to years past. I have been watching these guys since the late 60's. The migration from driver talent to a compromise for the sponsor dollar makes me sick. If you think these guys are good, I wish I could show you some years out of the 70's. They were the ones that hooked me on this sport. My "tirade" about JPM is based on facts and my watching him throughout his career - both in Indy and F1 (I used to be a fan as I thought he had what it takes). I have seen MS, JV, MW (current drivers), literally "will" a car around a track to make a pass, or to shave another tenth off their time. If they could have gotten out and pushed to make it happen - they would have. And you know what? Some how, some way, they got it done. JPM has NEVER shown this ability and struggles with anything less than perfect. When it is right - oh yes he is fast! But to me a good driver is more than someone who only does well under the best conditions. Add this to his temper and bulldozer attitude on the track and, yes, he deserves everything I say about him. Sorry to hijack this RB thread, but this is good conversation! Jim
I could not agree more. The only current competitive driver who has made this step from no where to F1 has been Kimi ... and while he is very fast he has yet to constantly prove he has what it takes to battle out a race win, instead of just winning because he was on pole and had a super fast car that day. As you say being fast and being a competitive racing driver are 2 completely different things. We have RB, Fisi, Trulli, RS, JB and DC (and others) are very, very fast drivers but not racing drivers. This means when they are up against another driver in the race (and Ross Brawn, etc. cannot find a strategy to make the pass) they cannot do the pass by themselves. They cannot raise their game and RACE the other guy. We have MS, JV (again), MW and Alsono who can ... they push and push the other guy, probing and continually searching for their weakness and thus mount a challenge and have a go at a pass. These guys do not need the fancy, dancy strategy ... they have learnt the racing game over years of lower formulas where pitstops, etc. do not happen and the racing is fncken hard and dangerous and requires big balls. I firmly am against what Sauber started with Kimi and this taking cheap effectively novices into F1 without having to go through the ladder. IMO this is one of the major reasons why we have such poor racing (sometimes) and why the teams are now so strongly into strategising ... ie. their driver can't do it by themselves. Yes the rules are all pointed towards this stuff, but a F1 WC should be a very fast RACING driver, not just a very fast driver ... and the best racing driver we have at the moment is MS. The next fastest (based on car and driver combinations) are NOT racing drivers, just fast drivers so MS has the advantage. Also what this is causing is the F1 teams have to nurse these drivers and thus we all miss out for a year or 2 while these drivers learn the game. They should learn the game in F3/2 and be straight up to speed in their 1st and REALLY competitive in their 2nd seasons. Pete
