Rumormill: Honda building an F1 engine | Page 4 | FerrariChat

Rumormill: Honda building an F1 engine

Discussion in 'F1' started by freshmeat, Feb 26, 2013.

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  1. TifosiUSA

    TifosiUSA F1 Veteran

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    #76 TifosiUSA, Mar 7, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2013
    Ian, great post.

    Shows what the true titans of this sport were...the mid 2000s V10 cars. I know for a fact that the old turbo cars would be destroyed by them and I sincerely doubt the new ones will touch any of their records.

    http://www.motorstown.com/images/mclaren-mp420-02.jpg
     
  2. Vinny Bourne

    Vinny Bourne Formula Junior

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    #77 Vinny Bourne, Mar 7, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Good stuff Ian.

    It's tough to directly compare the results of these different cars because of the different rules in effect at the times. During races the 80's turbos were severely limited in their power output whereas the 2005 cars were not. Not to mention better brakes and lightning quick auto boxes vs. manual shifting. Add in the higher drag from the wider tires and that says a lot.

    But on a track like the old Silverstone I think I would go with an 80's turbo in qualifying trim. And if you said use the same chassis to pit engine against engine I would again take the 1986 turbo.

    Above we have Berger, Brundle, Clarkson, and Hamilton all saying the "titans" were the 86 turbo's. The V10's circa 2005 were very impressive engines, but I like the more powerful sounding lower revving turbo's.


    Some comparison of numbers;

    from F1 technical about 2005 season --"That same year, some 3l V10 engines were producing more than 980hp and running very close to the 1000hp mark, a figure that was never reached since the ban on turbo engines. It was a sign for F1's governing body to change the regulations as top speeds at Monza of 370km/h were deemed hazardous "


    (source unknown)
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  3. Vinny Bourne

    Vinny Bourne Formula Junior

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    As we know these cars were not set-up to achieve top speed and there were many considerations. I found this about monza as I remembered -- "During the 2nd Qualifying session at Monza, Gerhard Berger's Benetton B186-BMW was speed trapped fastest of all cars at 352.22 km/h (219 mph)". Even though these were wider cars with wider tires which would incur a drag penalty it is simple math when you have 350bhp more than the 2005 engines.


    Something else to appreciate about the Nakajima/Oesterreichring video posted above is that the Lotus he is driving was an ACTIVE suspension car. That is why the video is so smooth vs. the suzuka one you linked. The Lotus suspension is traveling a lot but the car is kept at the same ride height relative to the pavement all around the track.

    Brands and this race in particular is a favorite;

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL3i_NQ9S0g]Brands Hatch Qualifying 1986 Part 1 - YouTube[/ame]
     
  4. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    +1

    "Difficult" is a definite understatement!

    Tires, fuel regulations, circuit changes etc etc all impact it fer sure. It can't really be done, but it won't stop us trying! ;)

    FWIW, Monza is one of the few that hasn't changed a whole lot over the "modern" era(s) - It stayed the same from 76-93, changed a little in 94 and again in 95.

    So, for ****s & grins I tabulated all the pole times since '76; Obviously omitted the "1 minute....." ;)

    A few things kinda jumped out at me;

    - The Scuderia hasn't been as "successful" there as the rose-tinteds would suggest!
    - IMO, the FIA (and the TWG) does a pretty good job of keeping them somewhat "under control" - They get too quick and something changes to reign 'em in again - Always been that way and always will.
    - We all have our "favorite" eras; Best looking, fastest, etc; Less than a handful of seconds around a ~100 second lap from "fastest" to "slowest" is indiscernible IMO.

    I for one am (almost! ;)) sure they'll be there or thereabouts this year and again in 2014. They'll remain the fastest things round a road course - It matters not if pole is 1:20 or 1:25 IMO as long as they're close. And one thing is for sure; They're doing it with less expenditure and more restrictions...... So, call me Pangloss! :)

    Cheers,
    Ian
    Source; Wikipedia of course.
     
  5. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Honda could be back sooner rather than later it seems;

    I wonder which "other team" it may be? Fer sure, they're not going to want to only supply Marussia!......

    Cheers,
    Ian
    Renault believes it deserves more credit for Red Bull title success - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com
     
  6. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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  7. TifosiUSA

    TifosiUSA F1 Veteran

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    I know it's tough to compare eras, all the things that technology brought made the mid 2000s V10s monsters. That's why they're the fastest cars ever and nothing is even close, that was my point.


    More "powerful sounding?" That one's up for debate haha...nothing beats that V10 scream, IMO.

    1000 HP with 3.0 liters N/A is a hell of a lot more impressive than 1000 HP with boost in my opinion. You can strap a turbo on anything and make huge numbers (see guys with street driven Toyota Supras making 1400 HP - and these are engines that can last for thousands of miles).

    Bottom line, I see the V10s as king because they hold the records. Till something else comes along and beats them, they will remain king. Will the new cars do it? I wouldn't hold my breath.

    The turbo cars back in the day were great until the FIA mandated boost/fuel limits, which made them crap.
     
  8. 4rePhill

    4rePhill F1 Veteran

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    According to the BBC ( BBC Sport - McLaren poised to switch to Honda engines for 2015 season ) :

    "McLaren has a contract with Mercedes with options for the team to renew for 2014 and 2015. McLaren are expected to take up only the first of those options."


    So if Honda could be back in 2014, how much sense would it make for McLaren to spend a year with a Mercedes V6 turbo and then switch to Honda in 2015?

    They'd be better off starting straight away with the Honda power-plant surely? :confused:
     
  9. GordonC

    GordonC F1 Rookie
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    That's an older article, Whitmarsh was quoted this week as saying that McLaren had a contract with Mercedes for 2013, 2014, and 2015.
     
  10. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    *Marginally* better off I guess.

    But, and I've said this before, this whole "integrated design" thing is overrated IMO. Given some CAD files, specs on cooling & energy storage and dummy blocks a new motor really isn't a big deal IMO - It's not like they're going from a V12 to this lump after all - I'm pretty sure even the mounts are specified - Pop one out, pop the new one on the same studs. ;)

    BTW, my take on Whitmarsh' comments; "We've got a contract, which includes options for '14 & '15. We're not sure yet what Honda are doing, so *definitely* do not want to show our hand too soon in case Merc gets pissed......" [Almost the same as when the owner gives his coach a "vote of confidence" a month ahead of firing him. ;) ]

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  11. 4rePhill

    4rePhill F1 Veteran

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    That makes no sense because based on that, they couldn't have the Honda engine until 2016.
    If they have a contract for 2013 and options for renewal for 2014 and 2015 then that would make more sense.


    I can appreciate the fact that customer engines tend to be less integrated into the whole design than Ferrari's in-house package, where the engine and chassis can be more intimately combined, so there is a degree of standardisation concerning the packaging of the power plants and their fits into the chassis, but as you know, there are more parameters to these engines than just physically fitting the thing in.

    Although they are all built to the same specification, in reality these are not true "stock" engines we're talking about, where one engine is exactly the same as the other.

    Aside from packaging, there's airflow requirements, cooling requirements, noise/vibration/harshness issues, different resonant frequency issues (remember Schumacher's Ferrari's V10 spitting out a drive shaft in the pitlane at Canada? - Resonant frequencies from the engine had loosened the bolts on the drive shaft!). These are all issues that can take away valuable time from the design engineers, especially if you have to do it two years running.

    I still think that if you run a Mercedes V6 turbo in 2014 and then a Honda V6 turbo in 2015, you still run a risk of spending two years ironing out problems rather than one year and create more issues than you need to.

    At the end of the day, that situation would only be to Mercedes' benefit as they'll get extra mileage to fully sort their engine package out for things like reliability and drive-ability and McLaren would have to start over again, learning how the Honda engineers do things, learning the characteristics of the Honda engine etc., etc.

    It's a bit of an additional distraction that could cause issues as I see it.
     
  12. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    F1 tech operates on the margins. While getting the integration 99% right is something any competent team can do its the last 1% that makes for a competitive team.
     
  13. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

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    I can see where you're coming from and can agree to a extent, however Ross B, banging a Merc engine into what was essentially a Honda car seems to fly in the face of that.
     
  14. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Absolutely. Probably more likely to be will cause issues, I agree. For sure, changing suppliers is a pretty big deal - Not just from the installation & packaging perspectives but also getting to know a new partner. OK, Mclaren & Honda go back a long way, but I guess pretty much all the people are different.

    +1 And what separates the "competent" from the "great". [They'll still be bush league until they do their own of course. ;)] As I mentioned elsewhere, my feeling is the MGUH & MGUK are going to be the most difficult to package & integrate into the cars systems. A challenge? Sure. But, given the resources, far from insurmountable IMO.

    But that was Ross in his heyday! Many here like to believe that not only does he walk on water but probably did the entire install himself.

    Using hand tools.

    In the dark..... ;)

    My WAG is that Honda haven't confirmed (or denied) anything yet. Given the opportunity (and the rumored "escape" clauses in the contract) I'm sure Mclaren would love to go with Honda in 2014.

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  15. GordonC

    GordonC F1 Rookie
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    Actually, Brawn had stated that switching from the Honda engine the chassis was designed for to the Mercedes powerplant affected their aerodynamics and they lost a large amount of rear downforce (4% or 5%, IIRC) from the engine change. When you consider how much more downforce they still had from the double diffuser than anyone else, that's a scary prospect!
     
  16. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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  17. 4rePhill

    4rePhill F1 Veteran

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  18. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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  19. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    :)

    +1

    Love him or hate him, Ron probably plays the game better than anyone since the Old Man. ;)

    It's sure sounding like Honda will be back though.

    Cool! [Memo; "Guys, do the motors, not the whole thing!" ;) ]

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  20. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    While I'm sure that they'd love to win a championship as Honda/Honda they know how that worked out last time they tried. Better memories from the Macca days.
     
  21. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    +1

    And, of course, the time before that.

    Arguably, the time before the time before that too..... ;)

    +1

    My bet? Merc for '14, Honda power for '15.

    Hopefully, one or two more will be tempted by their return.....

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  22. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Timeline sounds right.
    They'll need to supply more than one team per regs. Right?
     
  23. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    *Good* question!

    It may be covered in the sporting regs, but I'm almost certain there's nothing in the tech regs.....

    And I don't think the 2014 Sporting regs are out yet......

    Cheers,
    Ian
    PS; Scurries for rulebook.... ;)
     
  24. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    RedBull don't make their own engines.
    Plus Ferrari's top line revenue is a lot larger than anyone.
    They can afford to do things others cannot
     
  25. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    My tongue was and is firmly in my cheek.
    ;)

    RB is a soda company. Not a good paradigm.
    Ferrari makes the big bucks because they're a real car company.
     

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