Running a bit rich | FerrariChat

Running a bit rich

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by Mechanical Dad, Sep 9, 2018.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. Mechanical Dad

    Mechanical Dad Formula Junior

    Aug 30, 2016
    381
    East Aurora NY
    Full Name:
    Josh
    Well I've decided to tackle the poor fuel economy / burble on decel a week before the FCA meet. I believe the injectors are the issue and because they're original. So I'm replacing them in hopes to clear it up a bit. I tested them briefly last year and they seemed OK, but weren't consistent. Anyone else have this issue? What was your fix or results? Thanks!

    Sent from my SM-G930V using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  2. Mechanical Dad

    Mechanical Dad Formula Junior

    Aug 30, 2016
    381
    East Aurora NY
    Full Name:
    Josh
    May have found the issue. Looks like #4 isn't pulling its weight most of the time. So its definitely running on 7 cylinders. Pulled a few plugs randomly and all seemed to be firing about the same. Few more things to inspect yet. (I had an issue with #4 cylinder a year ago.) Hopefully this is it. Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Sent from my SM-G930V using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  3. Mechanical Dad

    Mechanical Dad Formula Junior

    Aug 30, 2016
    381
    East Aurora NY
    Full Name:
    Josh
    Update: replaced all the plug extensions and what a difference! Not perfect, but that is a huge step forward.

    Sent from my SM-G930V using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  4. MvT

    MvT F1 Rookie

    May 25, 2013
    4,248
    The Netherlands - NH
    Full Name:
    Tijn
    yeah they are known for misfires! Not so long ago when having had the privilege to meet MaseratiMike he ran into the same issue when we drove in the Belgian Ardennes.

    If you have no vacuum leaks and everything is good on the fuel system, new injectors are certainly a good idea since they wear out, you can tune it more rich or lean with the mixture screw between the airflow meter and the Fuel distributor.

    Be aware the if you set it leaner and it is too lean you can cause serious damage to your engine.

    Can you show us a pic of all of your spark plugs and order then per cylinder? Reading out spark plugs tells you a lot in these cases.
     
    Mechanical Dad likes this.
  5. Mechanical Dad

    Mechanical Dad Formula Junior

    Aug 30, 2016
    381
    East Aurora NY
    Full Name:
    Josh
    The spark plug extensions were a huge help. Its definitely running on all 8 now. I drove to the FCA meeting in Corning yesterday and it was good 90% of the drive. Slower speeds (below 2000 rpm) you could hear it pop a bit and load up. I know that its rich because it will occasionally diesel at shut off . I'm not going to tune the adjustment screen until I can find a reliable CO guage / meter. There have been too many mechanics in there before me and I'm sure it was adjusted. I may do a flow test on the fuel distributor as well. Fuel pressure Is within spec. Seems like the pilot circuit is rich if it was carburetors.

    Sent from my SM-G930V using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  6. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

    Feb 1, 2011
    3,859
    What exactly are the pressures ? Cold control, warm control, and system.

    I doubt if you could damage the engine with the mixture screw in the FD assembly. It really controls idle mixture more so than higher RPMs. If you adjust that screw with the motor running, you will probably get a stumble with 1/4 turn rich, or a 1/4 turn lean. The sweet spot is somewhere in between. Without a cat, it's not that critical.

    K-Jet problems are known for vacuum leaks, and clogs. If you're not running a fuel system cleaner, you've probably got some clogs in the FD and injectors. Many fine filter screens in the system that can become clogged up. I highly recommend Techron.
     
  7. Mechanical Dad

    Mechanical Dad Formula Junior

    Aug 30, 2016
    381
    East Aurora NY
    Full Name:
    Josh
    I'd have to check my notes but I do remember 75psi on one test. I've learned kjet as I went along and rebuilt the FD myself using some good reference material and researching till my eyes hurt. The car definitely runs better than it did when I first got it, but I'm sure I'm missing something small. Can I tune the mixture using Idle drop like a carburetor? That's how I do most of my race builds so I'm used to that style of tuning, more feel than numbers. Thanks for info and suggestions so far!


    Sent from my SM-G930V using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  8. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

    Feb 1, 2011
    3,859
    I don't believe you will get too much of an idle change from adjusting the mixture screw, but you will get a pronounced stumble at the too lean, and too rich points. Usually 1/4 turn in either direction.

    For running mixture, hold the throttle open to 3500 RPM, then press slightly on the air vane. If the RPM goes up, you are too lean there. The difference between the system pressure and the warm control pressure is what sets the running mixture.
     
    Mechanical Dad and waymar like this.
  9. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

    Feb 1, 2011
    3,859
    A method for adjusting the mixture screw is to turn counterclockwise until the lean stumble, then turn clockwise for max vacuum. Note the vacuum readings on these motors is about 1/2 that of Detroit iron.
     
    Mechanical Dad likes this.
  10. Mechanical Dad

    Mechanical Dad Formula Junior

    Aug 30, 2016
    381
    East Aurora NY
    Full Name:
    Josh
    I did check vacuum today and it's around 12 InMg. Going to check a few other things as well. And so if I push on the air vane and the throttle doesn't change or drops is that too rich then?

    Sent from my SM-G930V using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  11. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

    Feb 1, 2011
    3,859
    The mixture screw is mostly for the idle setting. Pressing on the air vane at idle will likely just bog down the motor. Try revving the motor to 3500, and then press slightly on the air vane. If the RPM goes down, you are either too rich, or at the optimum setting. If the RPM goes up, you are too lean. You can't set the running mixture with the idle mixture screw. You need to adjust the control pressure for this. Before changing the control or system pressure, make sure you have a gauge, and the specs on the pressures, and probably you should rebuild the WUR first. Common faults with the WUR are a clogged filter screen at the input port, and worn "O" ring in the fuel cell. E.g. a worn "O" ring there can raise the control pressure by 5 PSI. This will make a big difference in performance.

    12" @ idle is normal. This depends also on the idle speed. I get 14" @ 1100 RPM after warm-up (12 minutes).
     
  12. Mechanical Dad

    Mechanical Dad Formula Junior

    Aug 30, 2016
    381
    East Aurora NY
    Full Name:
    Josh
    I think the issue is the WUR .
    The motor just seems slow to rev but if your foot is in it, it just wants more. I can't remember when it really started either. Ran out of daylight and time today so I'll continue it this week. The rpm did drop at 3500 when I pushed on it and I set the mixture screw back to where I had it at midway between stumbles. The entire rpm range is rich but you can hear burble most at speed (2-3000rpm) under light throttle and it will "diesel" at shutoff on occasion. Haven't had enough time to get to it like I wish. I'm not convinced my fuel pressure guage qas correct either.( Older harbor freight set I've had a while) .system pressure was 72psi and warm pressure was either low 20s or 49. Guage was not consistent.


    Sent from my SM-G930V using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  13. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

    Feb 1, 2011
    3,859
    I think you have a vacuum WUR which means part throttle should apply max vacuum to the WUR and raise the control pressure, leaning out the mixture. So check that out, you could have a leaky vacuum hose, or a leaky diaphragm in the WUR.

    The dieseling could be a leaky injector, or a worn "O" ring in the system pressure regulator. This assembly is located inside the FD. Your test gauge should show control pressure holding over 30 PSI for 20 minutes after the motor is shut off. If not, there is a leak in the system.

    20 PSI with a warm motor would be stumbling and putting out black smoke. 49 is normal, or slightly to the lean side. 20 could be a correct cold control pressure. Cold control pressure should go up to the warm setting in 2 minutes. Maybe get a new gauge and test the control pressure again.
     
  14. Mechanical Dad

    Mechanical Dad Formula Junior

    Aug 30, 2016
    381
    East Aurora NY
    Full Name:
    Josh
    #14 Mechanical Dad, Oct 14, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
    Has New injectors and rebuilt FD. I'm going to get a new guage set up and retest. No vacuum leaks found . I did not touch the WUR since I've owned the car, so I'm leaning towards that. There were so may small issues when I got the car (worn cap and rotor, bad plug extenders, origunal injectors, bad fuel, dry rotted hoses, valves were all out of spec) that I think they all masked the issue a bit. Now that the small stuff is fixed there isn't much left. I'll post the results when I get them. Thanks everyone!

    Sent from my SM-G930V using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     

Share This Page