Running a Track Day - Ideas

Same text as I posted in the other thread;

I am mindful of the fact that the organisers are volunteers and are probably trying their best. It is a thankless task, and impossible to please all of the people all of the time. I would suggest however, that the organisers attend a bike ride day for some tips on organising these events for maximum participant enjoyment.
My suggestions would be;
Larger groups - 12 cars
Longer practice sessions 20-25min instead of 10-15minutes
Five laps in timed session, with fewer sessions. There were 5 timed sessions in the afternoon for some. Three longer sessions would have been better.
With longer sessions, there would be less time wasted changing groups, effectively giving more overall time on the track.
As to no grouping, my experience is this would only work with an open pit system, otherwise drivers should be grouped into approximately similar timed groups, or at least experienced and inexperienced. It is too easy for slower/less experienced drivers to be scared into a careless accident. There is also just as much chance of a faster driver making a careless pass in their haste to getting an unobstructed lap. With an open pit there is no pressure to get "good" laps in as you have unlimited time to do so.
This, however, is an issue for the Committee, I would have thought...

 

I will endeavour to raise all your points at our next VIC Committee meeting.
Any FCA member is entitled to come and present their views which would help the full Committee understand and ask questions.
The next meeting will be at 6pm, 23rd March at Collingwood.
You would need to ask Chris Stephen to be included in the agenda, or you can PM me and I can arrange for this to happen.
Regards,
Andrew

 

I agree with AHG. fixer and stephens take AHG suggestion and attend the next metting.

 

Graeme
Have you got any suggestions of your own on the running of the day?
I am happy to step up to the plate and make my views known in the appropriate forum, but surely there are more experienced members (experienced with FCA track days) who have some suggestions that they would like made known. How many non Committee members generally attend meetings anyway?

 

I think Phil has more experience than most on track days, having seen the larger English scene as well. Regarding the length of sessions, I agree; but bear in mind that the club day is geared to road cars that have a tendancy to run out of brakes after 3-4 laps. I think this is why the timed sessions were originally limited to 2 flying laps. The Testarossa that I drove in another life used to totally DESTROY it's brakes in 3 laps of Calder for example.

I agree with all Phil's sugestions above (particularly point 5, some examples were abysmal). From my point of view, I think the organisers don't have any personal experience with current race cars and their needs, and consequently don't understand them. Like it or not, there are growing numbers of them in the club. There has to be some consideration given to them or they just won't turn up any more. Ever tried to drive through the BACK of the pits without speeding in a car that Kangaroo hops at anything less than 80kmh??
Take away half a dozen race cars from the dwindling track day numbers & the events will be in even more economic difficulty. As Phil said, it took 6hrs to do 33 laps. You can do a Winton open practise day for less $$ and run all day long for as much track time per session as you could handle. Share transport/crew costs with a couple of other owners and it's even more economical.

I don't really care if timed laps are dropped; but judging by the crowds of drivers around the time sheets, it would seem that most people want them?
I would prefer longer practise sessions with passengers in the morning (at 8/10ths) and the same later in the day without passengers where you can push harder. This would require some common sense from the drivers in standard road cars.

 

It is difficult, bordering on impossible for me to attend any meetings held at night as a result of work committments. Anyone is welcome to take my comments along to the committee meeting. Any member can attend the meetings as I understand it.

 

I'll do it.

 

Excuse my ignorance on this topic but I am curious about one matter. Does the recording of lap times lead to any on track misbehaviour/bravado? If laps aren't timed, does this take some of the seriousness/competitiveness out of the day by taking pressure off some of the participants?

 

this is no longer the case, as i found out with AHG a few months ago....they now group different types of cars/motor bikes into separate groups. I think AHG had 3 lots of 10 laps? maybe 4...but not like the old days, that's for sure.

 

having no experience whatsoever, but having read bits and pieces about the trackday scene in europe it seems a lot of those organizations are getting it right and have been for quite a while. might be worthwhile casting the net wider for opinions on how to structure stuff.

 

No.
Yes.

The real fun is free practice. Having to go as fast as you can (not that anyone's twisting your arm) is quite stressful.

 

The point is, that common sense and flexibility needs to be used by all concerned, both drivers and organisers.
At Calder or Sandown you would only want 3 flying laps in a road car, but at PI 5 would be better. I definately wouldn't even bother with a club day at Calder and probably wouldn't go to Sandown either in the current format, because my car is only good for 10 laps tops including warm up and cool down laps at the tighter tracks and being restricted to one session per hour, makes the day not worthwhile. I would rather spend my money on an Events O'Neill track day, with open track, instructors, lunch etc, for less money.

 

Have you even contributed anything constructive to the FCA at all? Have you asked around what people really think of you. I know MY rep..you appear to be in denial. Was that "predictale" enough for you?

 

Can we keep this constructive?
It is my sincere wish that any Committe members, organisers etc do not view this thread as an attack on either their abilities, or efforts. Without them the event would never even happen. It is guys like Chris, Graeme etc that underpin the whole day. A mature respectful discussion with constructive ideas that can be taken to the Committee for further consideration should be the purpose.

 

These are the recently revised guidlines for FCA Rally Track Days.
They address most of the issues mentioned here and are obviously applicable to state run track days, if the organisers elect to do so.

Where it differs from Phil's suggestions are in his item 1 - no recognition of that, and
Item 2 - this is opposite to Phil's idea, but the underlying reasoning was that track densities required by CAMS allow approx 20sec spacing between cars. It was felt that similar performing cars would not catch the car in front inside 4 laps.

The minimum 3, preferably 4, laps recognises the limits of braking capacity of some models and different circumstances for different circuits.

Fairly obviously, the numbers attending a Rally Track Day are higher than a State day, therefore the management is critical if everyone is to have their "fair share"

These guidlines will be used during the WA Rally in October, so we'll see how they work!!!!

Would be happy to expand on these further if you desire.

JM

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Track Day

A Track permit and insurance needs to be organized. While some tracks like Wakefield Park do have their own permit and insurance arrangements, these items are normally arranged through CAMS and, since 2004, in conjunction with the circuit owner.

Drivers will also need to have a CAMS track licence, and the opportunity to obtain these on the day should also be made available for those who do not already have one.

The Supplementary Regulations that apply to any FCA track day will be used for the Rally. These are a standard document and are available on the FCA website at fca.org.au. Any variation to this must be approved by the National Committee prior to the Rally and the application for an event permit. Organisers should note that CAMS is in the habit of not issuing event approvals more than a day or two prior to the date of the event.

Officials managing the track day, i.e. Secretary of the Meeting, Clerk of Course, Stewards, Scrutineers and flag marshals, need to be CAMS accredited where the track day is operated under the aegis of CAMS.

Lap timing should be electronic and preferably be operated by an independent third party, or failing that, a team comprising of two or more FCA members – they not all being members of the same State.

Cars will be grouped into classes that best match the models that attend the Rally. These classes will change over time as the numbers of newer and older models change but at this time will typically be:

V12 - Pre 365
Post 365
Flat 12
V6
V8 (308-328) Refer to current Supplementary Regulations
V8 2+2
355 (inc 348)
360
360 Challenge
Modified V6 V8
Modified 12
Open Class (F40s, F50’s, 288 GTO etc.)

NOTE: Any class with less than 3 entries should normally be combined with the next most appropriate class. Normally this will mean classing the lone vehicle type upward into a more competitive class, however the organisers might by virtue of their knowledge of the numbers, of the drivers and of the type of circuit not always follow this rule.

An Interstate Relay is also to be held with the team for each State to be comprised of a 6cyl, early V8 (308 – 328), Late V8 (348 – 360) & 12 cyl. The absence of a particular type of vehicle from a state can be substituted by the nearest equivalent vehicle from that state. Equivalence will be determined by another state.


The following should be noted in connection with how the teams are comprised:

- a State that does not have a suitable type of vehicle (eg. V6, V8 etc.) may co-opt a driver and his/her vehicle from another State so long as that person/vehicle is not running for the other State. They may not co-opt another vehicle where a vehicle of that type is or ought to be available i.e. if a single slow V8 driver is all that a State has to select from, that person will be required, unless there are special circumstances, to be in the team for that State.

Driver Training/ Practice

Experience over the years has shown that practice session/s for most of the morning gives the maximum opportunity for drivers to enjoy themselves and while also minimising the number of incidents on track.

Passengers

Passengers are permitted in the non-timed part of the day on the condition that they are competitors or Rally entrants. A wristband or other suitably approved identification shall be worn by all competitors and passengers to ensure compliance with indemnity documentation. Children over 14 years of age are permitted by CAMS (in 2004) to ride with their parents as a technical matter, but this is not encouraged at a Rally.
In the event that an event is held at a non-CAMS track under other event insurance different provisions may apply.

Queuing/grouping

Shuffling cars forward in long hot queues has been a particular and undesirable consequence of the larger rallies. Faster vehicles catching slower vehicles can also be a problem in the timed session as this invariably ruins the faster cars bid for a fast lap.
To avoid these circumstances, the following procedures shall apply for practice and timed laps–
1. Track density (no. of cars permitted on the track) shall be determined – by CAMS if applicable.
2. Entries shall be “seeded” in groups equalling the track density required in 1. (above) by the organisers. “Seeding” shall be completed prior to the commencement of the meeting within the acceptable parameters of likely track times. Consideration shall be given to drivers who request to be in the same group as a “mate” providing there are no disparate performance issues, but in any case, shall be determined prior to the commencement of the meeting. Groups shall be coded A, B, C etc.
3. The organisers may revise “seedings” at the conclusion of the morning session if considered necessary.
4. Each car shall have their group code (A, B, C etc.) designated on the windscreen for ease of identification.
5. A marshalling area near the pre-grid shall be allocated and markers (typically “witches hats”) with group codes (A, B, C etc.) shall be positioned. A “reserve” group position shall also be included.
6. A marshal(s) shall be appointed to manage the groups from the marshalling area to the pre-grid and from the pre-grid to the track in their turn.
7. If a driver is late for his/her group when called to the pre-grid, they will be replaced by a “reserve”. The latecomer may take a place in the “reserve” marshalling area.
8. At the marshal’s discretion, cars in the “reserve” group with disparate performance may be refused inclusion in a particular group. (eg. It would be inappropriate to include a 360 from “reserve” with a group comprising substantially 246’s or similar)
9. It is the drivers’ responsibility to be at the marshalling area in good time for transfer to the pre-grid. PA announcements may be made if convenient. Once a group is on the pre-grid, changes shall not be made (i.e. a latecomer to the group will not be permitted to displace a reserve)


Timed Runs Timed runs shall be comprised of a minimum of three, preferably four hot laps with a warm up and a cool down lap. Most drivers will expect a minimum of about three or four sets of timed runs (say a total of twelve laps). Every driver must have the opportunity to complete at least three sets of hot laps – efficient management of the meeting should be focussed toward achieving this. Consideration should be given to maintaining this minimum even if the driver spins and loses much of one of his/her sets.

Flag Marshals

These are to be provided as per CAMS requirements with CAMS accreditation where appropriate, but in any case shall include at least one Flag Marshall for every blind crest/corner so that there is no obvious potential for a vehicle that has spun, or is stopped on the track, to be hit by the following vehicle. Where the design of a track requires marshals to be deployed, those marshals shall also have a fire extinguisher in accordance with CAMS Regulations at their disposal.

 

Well, I didn't start it, as you can see....but we all know I'd never let a comment go by without a response.

I've been getting nothing but negative feedback about the day, which is quite unfortunate, considering how we're stuggling for numbers and want people to return. I can only imagine that, after having such incredibly successful days last year, that there has been some sort of rule change or something that's stuffed everything up!

PCCV has 10-12ish cars on the track at any one time. Is there any reason why the FCA can't? They do 3 timed laps, which any ferrari can do, but at PI it would have to be a pretty uncared for car that couldn't do 5 laps.

Grouping according to speed is almost impossible.

I have ideas, lots of them, and so do others, but the people running these days aren't idiots and, without knowing the exact rules and regs, it's very hard to offer any good suggestions, but certainly, other clubs get to equal the number of laps that everyone did on Sunday with 90 entrants, so there's something wrong.

 

Peter
My comment was a general "lets be serious" one, not a personal attack, as much for Phil as you.

 

Didn't work at PI at the 1999 Rally - ask me how I know!

Surely, if you put a inexperienced Dino driver on the track with Scott or AHG, you're creating the potential for an accident? The (current) FCA view is that "matching" performances in groups does two things -

1. Properly spaced cars of equal(ish) performance will not hold each other up - very important for competitors!
2. Properly spaced cars of equal(ish) performance will avoid, as far as is possible, potential for car to car contact - important for the organisers!

I agree totally - unfortunately, common sense - not so common!

 

Pete
The number of cars on the track is dependent on the circuit & type of event creating a maximum track density - determined by CAMS.
Dont know what the formula is exactly, but at Wanneroo it results in a spacing of about 15-20 secs, I think.
John

 

John
Agreed totally, no groups works fine with low numbers and/or experienced drivers, but not on a busy club day. Once you have 50 plus entries, even at the island, you need to group drivers.
A suggestion for PI based on bike experience
2.06+ slow
2.00-2.05 medium
1.50-1.59 fast
1.49 or better v. fast.
With bikes it is usually 2.10+ slow, 1.55-2.10 medium, 1.55 or less, fast group.


In doing this, you will find that the faster groups will also be smaller, allowing the more experienced drivers to get a better run.

 

Is that during timing or practice or both?

 

haha...I didn't take it personally, Stephen. Serious...ok...from....NOW