Sauber buys Sauber | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Sauber buys Sauber

Discussion in 'F1' started by Far Out, Nov 27, 2009.

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  1. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I see, so that is meant to be a punishment, yes?
     
  2. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I'm devil's advocat here only. Of course Sauber should be allowed to use Ferrari engines, but it is the FIA we're dealing here with. Not the smartest club in the world.
     
  3. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    While the effect may be detrimental to Sauber the FIA's intent is to further their agenda and not so much to "punish".
     
  4. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Don't tell them that;)
     
  5. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I think it is pretty obvious by just looking at F1.

    Keeping F1 interesting is really not that hard to do, yet the FIA manages to keep it a processional race year after year. Mad Max was a bad choice. Hopefully Todt will make better decisions, but I'm not betting on it.
     
  6. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    To paraphrase an old friend, "the FIA could F up a wet dream" :)
     
  7. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Hopefully, the FIA will understand that the reason why Sauber couldn't sign the Concord Agreement on time was because of incertainty about the future, puting the team in an impossible solution.

    Signing the Concord Agreement without guaranty about the future would have been unethical and possibly illegal had they been unable to fulfill their obligations afterwards.

    The case of Toyota who signed the CA and then left F1 should be an eye opener; how is the FIA going to deal with that? By issuing a massive fine?
    Some suspect that Renault is watching that to make up its mind about its future...
     
  8. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    My bet is that the FIA will punish Toyota and Renault for signing and Sauber for not.
     
  9. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Indeed, unfortunately Todt has inherited the mess Mosley has left.

    Hopefully he will do the right thing.

    Because Toyota signed the 09 CA this legal entity enjoys the rights and privileges of the CA unless its parent company chooses to sell the company to a new owner. Thus the new owner would need to be able to prove that it controls the company registered in Cologne with the number HRB 9846.

    If this is the case the CA arrangements should remain in force and a team may change the name of the chassis without losing its rights if the F1 Commission agrees. These rights lapse if a team ceases to be a constructor; fails to show up at races; fails to make an entry before the closing date or is declared insolvent.
     
  10. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    There is no sign of that!
    Toyota, it seems, just wants to stop doing F1, but still wants to keep its team and facilities for other racing activities (Le Mans, rallies, WTC, DTM, etc...).

    As far as we know, no one has shown any interest in taking over from them the F1 effort anyway.

    It's a completely different case than Honda to Brawn or BMW to Sauber.

    Toyota bailing out of F1 must be closely watched by Renault, because more than one suspects the French manufacturer to be the next to leave F1 in the same circumstances.
     
  11. DGS

    DGS Six Time F1 World Champ
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    2009: Brawn GP ran the Honda developed chassis, with the Honda drivers and the Honda crew, still mostly paid by Honda (labor issues with laying off UK workers).

    Yet FIA deemed them a "new" team, gave them #22/23 instead of #18/19 ...
    ... and denied them Honda's share of the '08 Concorde pay-out.

    It's almost certain Sauber will be deemed a "new" team, and that nobody will get BMW's '09 Concorde funds.

    The only question will be whether Todt will protect Max's "back room" deals.
    ... Especially now that the French courts have snubbed N.Tech:
    http://www.autoblog.com/2009/11/13/report-court-rejects-rejected-f1-team/
    http://www.autoevolution.com/news/french-court-rejects-ntechnology-action-against-the-fia-13725.html

    F1 Spec Series. (gag)

    FIA ruined WRC, and it looks like they're going to ruin F1.
     
  12. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #37 kraftwerk, Nov 28, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2009
    Not quite true, I have read there is somone interested, StefanGP.. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80357


    DGS : F1 Spec Series. (gag) (agree)

    FIA ruined WRC, and it looks like they're going to ruin F1. (yes but I hope not)
     
  13. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    That's because they stated their team and cars are not for sale.
     
  14. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    As far as I understand (and I may be wrong), Toyota wants just to stop F1, but keep its team, staff and installations for other motorsport activities they haven't revealed yet.
    Some suspect a return to Le Mans, where there is an 'unfinished business', other think a return to WRC, possibly also DTM.
    It's a completely different case than Honda or BMW that wanted to get rid of their F1 teams and facilities.

    I don't think Toyota cars and plans for the next car, plus intellectual properties concerning F1 are of any interest without the technicians, the equipment, the test rigs, wind tunnels and so on. So I don't think these are even for sale.


    F1 is becoming a joke if you can't even get out of it without incurring heavy financial penalties when you want to stop. Before it was the entry fee that was prohibitive, not its the exit clause!
     
  15. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

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    It pains me to say this as I detest Mosley, but he had a point about the question of manufacturers just pulling out.
     
  16. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    That's true, but he went about it totally the wrong way:

    - budget cap -> not enforcable
    - ban testing hurt mostly new drivers
    - spec parts -> destroys the core of F1
    - limiting wind tunnel hours -> not enforcable
    - limiting team members -> will hurt the small teams
    - KERS -> increased the costs

    Any attempt at reducing costs through these venues are stupid.

    Ways to reduce costs and make the show better:

    - Limit number of fly away races (more Euro races)
    - Testing ban, but add a test day on Thursday before the race
    - Ban super expensive new technologies like KERS
    - Ban all aeros, no wings, no under tunnels, no winglets -> gets rid of a lot of wind tunnel and CFD personnel and makes the cars more capable of passing
    - Replace carbon discs with steel discs -> cheaper and allows for more passing due to longer breaking zones

    Granted, that won't make F1 a hell of a lot cheaper, but nobody said it was cheap. The manufacturers will come back, once their car sales are up again. Guaranteed.

    The one thing Mad Max got right was bringing back Cossies for small teams and reducing the tire manufacturers to one.
     
  17. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    OMG! Next you'll admit to missing him!
     
  18. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Personally, I can't see what the big deal.
    The problem is that people have been dealing with F1 as a business, where I still see it as a sport.
    I can't see why it's so difficult to join in (it was like a closed shop at one time) and why a team exiting creates so much fracas.
    It should be obvious to anyone that, for a car constructor, F1 isn't the main business, and that at some point, having reached its target of success, exposure, brand and image building, publicity, etc... it will pull out... until the next time.
    Mercedes, Honda, BMW, Renault, Ford have done it in the past, and then came back, and left again. What's the big deal?
     
  19. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Agreed now if only you had the job..;) Mosley made problems by getting everything personal.

    I have to say I want F1 to stay at the forefront in the technical side in other words new ideas, breaking new ground with materails ect, however that can still be done under restrictive rules.

    And also for it to be never slower than other series with the same format.
     
  20. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

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    NEVER IN A BILLION YEARS....;)
     
  21. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

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    You have a point, however given the nature of the business, the risk is mass exodus thats what finally got rid of Mosley.

    There has to be some sort of fair commitment, for the good of all.
     
  22. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Louder. I can't hear you;)

    As far as limiting aero goes, as long as cars have shapes those shapes will be crafted to suit. We can limit aero devices and developments but never remove them entirely.
     
  23. DGS

    DGS Six Time F1 World Champ
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    #48 DGS, Nov 28, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2009
    That became a self-fulfilling prophesy, as FIA made it impossible to apply the manufacturer's experience and expertise to advance the art. (Defending the garagistas.)

    I've said it before: It's not how much a manufacturer spends on F1.

    It's what they get for their money.

    F1 used to be both a sport and part of the R&D department.

    When you have a spec series, it's part of the advertising budget,
    ... and then only if you can hire drivers and managers that will bring you wins,
    ... and the organizing body will let you keep your wins.

    Max turned F1 into a place openly hostile to actual manufacturers. I wouldn't be surprised if they all left.


    Banning Renault's brilliant mass damper was inexcusable. And then permitting the slotted diffuser (in violation of all standards since side skirts were banned), to shake up the grid. Blatant micromanagement of the season standings.

    When the FIA fiddles with race results and technical rules to make the season "more exciting", it becomes as "exciting" as watching a rigged numbers game. (Yawn.)


    But I suspect the main reason behind the anti-manufacturer shift was that the manufacturers are too independent. They don't bow and scrape to FIA like the garagistas.
     
  24. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #49 tifosi12, Nov 29, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2009
    Very true. But removing a lot of downforce the usual way would make passing a lot easier.

    3 excellent points!
     
  25. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

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    +1

    DGS We speak the same lingo with regards to the FIA.
     

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