SC kit for 308/328/Mondial

If he is running 72lbs (4.8 bar) of system pressure this is not enough. He needs at least 6 (88) bar if not a tad more. I think most of your recommendations are spot on for the most part. I don't have enough information on the specific components he is running so I can only assume what is in the system.

 

Stephan & Carl,

I have not received the 086 modded Wur as yet, but when I do installing it and making the reccomended changes to pressures etc. will be easy for me to accomplish (assuming the shims needed are available).

Current system pressure is 5.2bar (74psi)
I am now using Bosch 0-580-254-910 fuel pump 190 lph / 140 psi max
K-jet aluminum Euro non lambda fuel distributor #0-430-100-034

Stephan, last dyno was 260 rwhp @ 5800rpm (limited by air/fuel lean out), we are looking for a 300+/- rwhp @ 6800+ rpm outcome, hopefully.

FYI- something that still concerns me. I have a confirmed (actually measured this myself) fuel pump volume of 198 lph @ 140+ psi pre-CIS, yet my fuel flow test at fuel distributor tank return port is still only 1000cc per 30sec @ 12 volts (makes me wonder if I may have some unknown restriction in the fuel distributor)

We shall see what the 086 does.

-Lou

 

Stephen,
This is one of the supercharged 308s that I talked with you about a few weeks ago. When you look at the dyno charts the power falls sharply and the A/F rises sharply at about 5500 rpm. The fuel pump was week according to bosch specs. Now it looks like the fuel distributor could be under performing due to blockage. These systems run 5 to 5.4 sys pressure, I know it's lower than the 930's but the same fuel distributor can feed a 6.9 liter M-B.

My thoughts at this point are check the flow rates on the fuel distributor and go from there.

Larry

 

Larry,

Elaborate please on "check the flow rates". We already know the fuel distributor is reducing the pressure from 140+ pump to 74 system, and the flow volume from 198 lph to 120 lph. Is there another way to determine if there is a restriction issue? Let me know if there is another performance test that I can do ?! Individual injector line flow rates !?!?

-L

 

Stephan,

Per your request:

094 ( Audi turbo) WUR and fuel delivery specs as confirmed on car now:

control pressure @ 75 degrees ambient :

cold--------------------- 1.8 bar / 26psi
warm---------------------3.6bar / 52psi

w/ 8psi applied to boost port on 094-------1.7bar / 24psi (boost enrichment)

I am now using Bosch 0-580-254-910 fuel pump
fuel pump pressure 140+ psi / 198 lpm @ CIS Inlet

fuel system pressure (@ distributor) 5.2bar / 74psi ( 2.9bar/41psi resting pressure @ 20 minutes)

fuel system volume 1000cc per 30 second test (post cis @ return port, engine not running, 12 volts applied)

K-jet aluminum Euro non lambda fuel distributor #0-430-100-034

Injectors are stock Ferrari originals (Euro , no emissions equip, 3 litre, 32 valve V8)

 

No micro screen in my inlet fitting, checked for that when I dis-assembled cleaned and blew out the fuel system as stated above (I'll check again to be sure, but
I think its already been removed.

Got gauges, so thats not an issue. A little recommendation on shims/shim stock/washers for the pressure reg spring adjustment?

The injector pressure increase as explained above makes perfect sense. Will an increase in system pressure from my current 74 to 90 also acheive a greater resistance to the FD plunger and air flow plate ? (or do I have my head up my....?) Maybe this will also stop the 5200rpm bottom out, and give us a more controlled "across the full RPM range" enrichment. Seems to me @ 8psi boost that paddle has to be reacting differently than it would in a normally aspirated system.

last question, When I recieve this 086 WUR, and tune to 40+/- control pressure, what will the control pressure drop to under boost, and is it progressive ?

 

As I mentioned in another thread, I went out today and tested with a stock euro fuel distributor (recently rebuilt) and my stock WUR (also recently rebuilt) today at just under 8psi. Under HARD accelleration the A/F ratio stayed at around 11.5, not going above 12.0 until I let off the accellerator when it went up to 14.5 which is of course just fine. Full accelleration was maintained until redline with no drop-off along the way.

So... good news... the stock CIS components CAN DO IT!

 

This is excellent news for Carl's "bolt on" kit, but gives me a sinking feeling that perhaps I may need my fuel distributor rebuilt.
Are you saying here, that you maintained 11.5 A/F all the way to 7800rpm @ 8psi boost max ?! And this with a stock as a rock fuel dist and wur? If so, that is AWESOME news.

I received the modded 086 WUR tonight (happy happy, joy joy) So tomorrow we may see what the results are. ( I hope the new changes to system pressure and controled boost enrichment WUR do the trick for me at the 10psi+ boost I am seeing above 6700 rpm)

 

Carl,

I got the 086 WUR today (many thanks, my freind)

RE: system pressure vs control pressure, I got the concept, I understand the function. But I have seen @ 28psi range/sweep (52 drop to 24)!!! with my current 094 boost sesetive WUR. That, coupled with the lower system pressure (74) I have been working with is most likely the cause of the early lean out and air flow plate bottom out (Doh !) Or, maybe not ? We shall see.

Let me ask once again, do I need to order/obtain a CIS pressure spring shim kit? or is there a more simple "go get some 4mm washers" kind of solution ??

-L

 

Yep, that's it! Though to be more accurate, my max boost was actually around 7.8 psi and the A/F did touch 12.0 once. Both the WUR and euro fuel distributor were rebuilt by Larry, but within factory specs. The O2 sensor is brand new Bosch, feeding a digital gauge.

 

OK.

New 086 WUR installed, system pressure adjusted, etc.

Questions for Carl, and comment welcome from others. Here is what I have now.

System pressure shimmed to 92 PSI , confirmed.

cold control pressure on new 086 WUR 26psi (1.5 bar)

warm control pressure initially 38psi (2.7 bar) I adjusted to 40psi per Carl no vac/boost attached (nice set up BTW !!)

W/ vac-boost port attached and engine at idle control pressure moves to 58psi (4.1 bar) under idle vacuum.

idle A/F ratio has been dialed to 13.0 with vac/boost line connected.


I can only assume upon accelleration (loss of vacuum) control pressure will return to 40, then as boost comes in drop to 26-28?

Before I road test this bad girl, here are my questions: do I set the idle air fuel ratio (3mm CIS mixture adj) with the vac/boost attached ? Do we want the warm control pressure adjusted to 40psi without vac line attached (as it is now) or not?

I will apply 8psi to the vac/boost port tomorrow to confirm boost enrichment/control pressure specs (to confirm my assumptions), and also check FD fuel volume performance with new system pressure adjustments.


Road/data log tests tomorrow AM. Chime in fellows !!

-Lou

 

OK Carl,

Thats what I thought... (ie: setting with vac/boost attached) once I saw that vacuum raise the control pressure. I will make the adjustments as you recommend above, and post my test numbers.

I have various gadgets gauges and pumps and vacuum thingies here at my disposal to confirm control pressure at both boost and vacuum (no running along side or midget in the luggage compartment necessary).


Yes, confirmed 12 volts to warm up connector.

Yes, warm control pressure setting done with WUR @ warmed up engine temp.

Yes, top nipple left open to atmospheric.

Ciao,

-Luigi

Edit: Just got a business call, my attention is needed. Can't play until later today.

 

OK.

New 086 settings (triple redundant confirmed)

91+/- psi system pressure (i see a tiny fluctuation +/- 1psi)

fully warm control pressure (engine running, vac/boost connected) adjusted to 40psi (2.8bar)

neutral (no vac or boost) = 34psi control pressure

6lbs boost = 26psi control pressure

8lbs boost = 23psi control pressure

10lbs boost = 23psi control pressure (max reduction in CP 40-23= 17)

idle A/F adjusted to 12.0/1

I'm not even going to post the insanely weird results of the data logged road dyno, too erratic (boost readings low, A/F looks like the Grand Tetons, and yes, confirmed the belt is tensioned nice and tight). I will reinstall software and recalibrate the 02 sensor and LMA-3 for a run test tomorrow.

Also, did a road pull with the ECU vac line pumped down to 20hg vacuum to keep it in retard per Larry Fletchers advice, almost excactly the same results, so it does not look like ignition issues causing raw fuel in the exhaust and giving false A/F readings.

I will say that the A/F looks good and flat (11.0- to 12.5) on my cockpit gauge until it spikes to danger zone above 6500rpm (deja vu?) Pulls like a freight train, and even gets an extra jolt as it leans out the half second before I get out of the throttle and in on the clutch. IMO, not ignition, its fuel volume/delivery.

Re-tested fuel volume after the road test. 1000cc per 30sec @ 12 volts confirmed, 3 times (still low by Bosch standards !?) (I smell fuel distributor restriction) We shall see.

NOT the outcome I was hoping for. (can someone please contact the Pope and get the ball rolling on my sainthood status??)

Ciao,

Saint Luigi, the abnormally aspirated.

 

Way way back at the beginning, your dyno sheet looked very much like you were dropping a cylinder....which will make your A/F appear to spike lean.

Take the car out again and this time do a plug read to confirm there is a lean condition. To do it, find a stretch of road where you can let it pull hard and long, I like to find a hill to drive up. When it's time to get out of the throtle, don't. Instead kill the ignition and push the clutch as close to the same time as you can and coast to the sholder. Now pull some or better yet all the plugs. If you find white near the electrode, you are in fact lean, but if they are tan, your gauge is lying.....and when you fine the wet or glazed looking one, you'll know what to fix.

 

Thanks for the input. But...I have been through the whole ignition/extender/wire check....3 sets of plugs (progressively cooler heat range) and pull plugs on a regular basis on each change we make. I have not done the clean plug-hardpull-ignition off test on this round of changes, so I may just to leave no stone unturned. It will be worth it just to be sure.

I can tell you this from pulling plugs last night, I am definatley running very lean at some point in all cylinders (white grey electrode from almost the weld to the tip) but the plug bodies at the rim of the thread look to be carbon black rich. There is minimal evidence of detonation specing on the clean white porcelain, consistent all 8 plugs. Non wet, glazed, fuel fouled, or even close to tan)

Off to work, back at the car later today.

-St. Luigi

 

No need to repeat, if you have 8 white plugs, you're confirmed lean. With all the changes you've made with none seeming to help, I just though confirming the A/F reading is correct was worth the effort.

 

Lou,

I think you will reach Saint status. If I were the Queen, I would knight you. We will all thank you when you get it right.

 

UM...

Innovate Motorsports wide band A/F data logger went nuts on re-calibration (I'm SOFA KING happy!!!!!)

Might be part of the problem, but not the solution. Un...Be...Lievable....off to innovate for a new unit or reburn ASAP.

Dead in the water without A/F data. keep you posted.

Ciao,

St. Luigi, the TENACIOUS !!! (and also abnormally aspirated)

 

and who would this knight be.. Sir Boost-a-lot, Sir Lean-a lot, the white (plug) knight ? (it's only a flesh wound!!... come back!!............right then,.. we'll call it a draw !!!!)

-L

 

+1

 

OK, corrupted firmware on the Data logger/af unit. Fixed @ Innovate Motorsports in 20 minutes ( I am so lucky to live in the center of the motorsports supplier capital of the planet !, I mean, Innovate, Deering, Five-O, Eibach, Simpson racing, etc. all right around the corner !!)

FYI, all of this trouble I am having has ZERO to do with the supercharger kit from 928motorsports, it's all about a deficiency my particular fuel system has, I'm sure of it.
Carl has worked out all of the bracketing and intake, pulleys etc. rock solid with my assistance, and the new WUR is functioning exactly as it should. It has been proven on other 308's that the k-jet WILL support supercharging to levels far beyond what we are attempting.(just thought that needed mentioning)

I WILL get this thing to fuel properley this weekend, one way or another (stay tuned).

No more Mr. nice guy

 

OK,

086 WUR installed, sys pressure now @ 90+/- psi, Innovate datalogger all dialed in. The WUR is doing its job, enriching at WOT no vacuum (to as rich as 8.8/1 !) the AF spikes from there for under 1 second to 14+/1, then the boost enrichment snaps it back to 11/1+/-. And from there the A/f ratio climbs in direct relation to RPM and boost increase, not as bad as before, but not quite where we want to be. I am seeing 10psi+ boost @ 7000rpm as I get out of the throttle (15+ AF spike, yikes!).

GURUs, take a look at these run graphs (YES !, I figured out how to screen cap and paste).
What do you think about that .9 second spike, and the overall inability to fuel to redline.

I know my fuel distributor will flow at least 2.5 lpm, I have seen it do it, but with my current pump @ 12 volts, I'm only pulling 1000cc per 30 seconds (2 litres per minute) I will pick up a 044 fuel pump tomorrow (400 lph @ 190psi) and install and re-test fuel volume delivery. Then if we still have issues on road test/data log, it has to be the fuel distributor (although I am pretty confident that it is not) it's worth the $$ to have the big pump for future, and to confirm the FD issue.

below are run graphs of control pressure adjustments to 36,38,40,42,psi. All runs are 3rd gear WOT from about 2500RPM up, @ the section with the data flag.
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