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Scary moment starting my 348

Discussion in '348/355' started by troy_wood, Jun 14, 2008.

  1. troy_wood

    troy_wood Formula 3

    Apr 28, 2007
    1,450
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    Troy Wood
    Hi everyone - I had a pretty scary few minutes today trying to start my car, heres what happened:

    After driving for about 40 mins today, I just finished climbing a 2 mile step hill. When I got to the top I turned the car off at a look-off point. When I went to start the car 5-10 mins later, I turned the key and heared a 'cluncking-rattling-oh-my-god-I-snapped-the-tbelt' sound. I know I shouldn't have but I tried to start it 2 more times with the same result. I waited about 2 mins, tried again and it started, idled and ran fine ever since. What a terrible feeling (one I know Im going to have to get used to). Any thoughts? Thanks.

    Troy
     
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  3. Miltonian

    Miltonian F1 Veteran

    Dec 11, 2002
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    This is hard to say, but I'll give it a guess. The possibilities: starter, ring gear, flywheel, transmission.

    It seems like if it was the starter or the ring gear, it would do it every time, hot or cold, clutch pedal in or out.

    If it was the transmission, it wouldn't make the noise if you had the clutch pedal pushed in while cranking, and it would continue to make the noise after the engine started.

    The flywheel - hmmmmmm. It only made the noise while the engine was cranking over?? It's possible that the grease inside your flywheel is becoming diluted and the internal parts of the flywheel are banging around inside until the engine starts and the centrifugal force pushes them into position. It would be more noticeable when the engine is warm and the grease is thinner. Take a look under the back of the car and see if there is fluid leaking through the perforated panel on the bottom of the flywheel housing - that would be a good indication that the flywheel is leaking.

    Others, what do you think?
     
  4. PATLEW

    PATLEW Formula 3

    Dec 3, 2007
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    I had a simular issue with my 348 mondial t that got worse over time. Starting cold no problem then when restarting it would click and then nothing but as the car sat it would start up with no issues. I also found that if you kept turning the key it would eventually start. The fix was to have the strater rebuilt at the recomendation of Automotive International and once it was completed the issue went away. Good luck
     
  5. No Doubt

    No Doubt Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Was your car parked sideways on a significant incline when you heard the terrible starting noise?
     
  6. troy_wood

    troy_wood Formula 3

    Apr 28, 2007
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    holy - yes it was! I pride myself in giving acurate and thorough descriptions of issues but didn't even consider mentioning such a detail - What does this mean???

    Thanks for your responses guys.
     
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  8. troy_wood

    troy_wood Formula 3

    Apr 28, 2007
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    Yes, only while cranking. The car failed to start as well for 3 attempts. The fouth and it started completely normal.
     
  9. No Doubt

    No Doubt Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Mmm...I'll take: Worn Motor Mount for $100, Alex.
     
  10. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    It's the daily Daily Double!!!
     
  11. No Doubt

    No Doubt Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Yeah, Baby!
     
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  13. troy_wood

    troy_wood Formula 3

    Apr 28, 2007
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    Wicked! I have never come across this scenario in my reading before. My initial thought was flywheel grease clean/repack, but the symptoms didn't really match up. I am doing my 30k major in a few weeks. Can't wait to prove you right. Thank you Alex. Thanks to you all for the input - I'll be sure to post pics of the bum mount to prove/disprove this diagnosis.

    Troy
     
  14. troy_wood

    troy_wood Formula 3

    Apr 28, 2007
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    Puzzling as to why the car failed to start for 3 attempts - a bad mount would not prevent starting. I am thinking that I probably disengaged the starter every time I heard the noise from hell thus aborting the start. It's hard to remember now how long I was cranking while hearing this noise because I was a bit freaked at the time. I am thinking less than 1 second however.
     
  15. troy_wood

    troy_wood Formula 3

    Apr 28, 2007
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    ...but a bad mount causes vibration and vibration causes the motronic to throw a 'no-fire' value... I finally got it and will now go away quietly.
     
  16. Miltonian

    Miltonian F1 Veteran

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    Just to humor me, did you check for fluid leaking from the underside of the flywheel housing?

    Remember, if your flywheel is out of balance on hot starts, the engine will crank but won't want to fire.

    Do you have the rattling noise when shutting off the engine? Again, this would be a flywheel symptom.

    I'm personally not familiar with bad motor mounts causing a rattling/clunking as you describe, but hey, I'm open to the possibility.
     
  17. troy_wood

    troy_wood Formula 3

    Apr 28, 2007
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    Hi Jeff - I did check for grease leakage as soon as this happened and not a drop. Nothing on the bell housing or anywhere on the underside. There might be a slight rattle on shut down however... I think he put togather that the cars attitude was on a side-ways incline from me having said in my original post that I was in a mountain region. The unequal distribution of engine weight on the frame/imbalance was enough to give an exaggerated shake upon cranking. I think this is what he's saying although I am not sure. It would make since the car failed to start as teh vibration triggered the ecu to send no-start values. The only thing I still don't quite get is why it started wi normally the fouth time. It would seem that a physical law/problem such as this would be a static one. Mount must be just starting to go bad and/or the grade I was parked on was just enough...

    Just curious, can flywheel grease dry out - can one still have flywheel imbalance without leakage? Thanks for the help Jeff.
     
  18. Miltonian

    Miltonian F1 Veteran

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    I have personally never heard of flywheel grease drying out. I'm sure that the proper Kluber grease has a very long life span. If someone packed the flywheel with grease that isn't designed for the purpose, it might be possible, but I doubt it. To me, if the grease isn't leaking out through the clutch housing, it doesn't seem likely that the flywheel caused the noise, but it had to come from somewhere.

    Does your clutch pedal operation feel OK? I wonder if maybe a finger broke off the pressure plate and banged around inside? We've seen reports of numerous broken pressure plates.

    I can't really picture how parking on a slope would have any effect on the motor mounts.

    Keep us posted on what you find.
     
  19. troy_wood

    troy_wood Formula 3

    Apr 28, 2007
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    Interesting - I'll keep an open mind and ear until I do the engine-out. I will definitely report what I find and carefully inspect the p-plate for finger damage. Thanks again for your input.

    Troy
     
  20. Garth S

    Garth S Rookie

    Jun 17, 2008
    1
    Troy,
    Got your email: sounds as if the Bendix drive on the starter nose has begun to pack it in. This drive is a one way clutch affair of springs and steel rods (pawls) that allow the starter motors torque to spin the ring gear .... when they wear, they slip when HOT - causing a rattle that will scare a newbie Ferrari owner :).
    You can safely drive on it for a while, but they never get better, and will eventially die. I replaced the C4S starter for exactly the same symptoms - so my hoist is at your disposal ...

    The other rattle referred to at shutdown is more typical of cars with dual-mass flywheels. Perhaps the 348 is so equipped ???? , but this would be unlikely to cause a hot restart issue.
     
  21. Miltonian

    Miltonian F1 Veteran

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    The 348 does have a Voith dual-mass flywheel, and an imbalance in the flywheel caused by diluted or lost Kluber grease WILL cause a hot start problem. We've seen it numerous times here, including on my own 348.

    Starter Bendix problem? Could be, but I would associate a bendix problem with a "free wheeling" sound, not really the "clunking-rattling" sound as described.

    How has the car been starting this week, Troy?
     
  22. mwhitesell

    mwhitesell Formula 3

    Sep 17, 2006
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    I would bet on the starter too. It could even be that the alternator is not charging the battery enough and that it's not turning the starter fast enough. An almost dead battery makes a funny starter sound.
     
  23. troy_wood

    troy_wood Formula 3

    Apr 28, 2007
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    Jeff - its been 120 miles and 10 hot starts later - all fine with the exception of one incident, a 1/20th of a sec hitching sound immediately after starter engage that made it past to a a good start. On all starts I have the clutch fully depressed with a neutral gearbox.

     
  24. No Doubt

    No Doubt Six Time F1 World Champ
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    If the second incident was on nearly level ground, then I'd look under your bumper to see if all of the bolts are tight that hold on the starter motor.
     
  25. wax

    wax Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #22 wax, Jun 17, 2008
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  26. No Doubt

    No Doubt Six Time F1 World Champ
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    #23 No Doubt, Jun 17, 2008
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