School me on the F1.

I put it in neutral at lights. It saves wear on the throw-out bearing and eliminates any drag on the driven disks in the clutch pack.

Ray

 

Just to clarify :
Neutral at light does not save wear on the throw-out bearing. In this case, the TCU maintains the clutch open and the ToB is still pushing on the mechanism.
If your PIS is a bit on the tight side, selecting N will eliminate any drag because in N the clutch is bit more opened than in 1st. If your PIS is spot on (no drag) or a bit on the high side, selecting N won't make significant diffrence.

 

My 360 F1 does not "pull" in any gear (including reverse) until the gas pedal is pressed. With my foot off the gas and the car in gear, it behaves exactly like a manual transmission car with the clutch pedal depressed. I am not an expert but it sounds like your PIS might need to be adjusted?

 

That's fascinating. I learned that procedure here on Fchat. I am so glad to hear that news because that procedure is a PITA. I will connect my X-431 Torque tool and let it record the live data stream of TCU commands to verify that of course and post it here.

Thanks for the clarification.

Ray

 

The biggest thing to improve clutch life, also mentioned here, and even on a stick car is to get the clutch to fully engage as fast as possible .. so try to get to 2k quickly and don't inch up by feathering gas pedal ( like stuck in traffic etc)...and of course avoid reverse as much as possible

 

The clutch is always open when an F1 Ferrari is stopped, regardless of whether in neutral or in gear, just like Eric said. Coasting to a stop in neutral saves several downshifts and synchronizer and throw-out bearing cycles, but there is little to no benefit while fully stopped, just like Eric said.

Drive an F1 Ferrari exactly like you do a three pedal car (assuming you have driven a three pedal). If you are a downshift to a stop kind of guy with three pedals, do that with F1. If you are a coast to a stop in neutral guy with three pedals, do that with F1. If coasting to a stop in neutral and traffic starts moving, either the upshift or downshift paddle will get you the same gear. This gear will be too high for comfortable acceleration so a useful technique is to always use the downshift paddle to get her into gear and then perform an immediate downshift to get a usable gear. As a technique, I never let the F1 system automatically downshift because it only does that barely prior to lugging. If you want her to downshift, do it yourself.

 

Thanks, Taz.

I have driven 3-pedal cars ― never a slush-box ― since I was 16. I wanted an F1 because it makes heel-and-toe downshifting a thing of the past and prevents over-revving the engine on downshifts and bending every valve stem.

In a three peddle car I always held the clutch in the open position with the transmission in first. Until one day a mechanic told me I was putting undo pressure on the TOB. So I switched to putting the 6-speed in neutral with the clutch disengaged. I never used the transmission to slow the car by downshifting because brakes are cheap, clutches are expensive. Racing is different but one still uses the brakes only to slow the car, downshifting only to set up the car for corner exit.

There was a thread about this subject perhaps 8 months ago and the consensus was to put the car in neutral at stoplights and avoid stop-and-go traffic which produces wear on the clutch disk. I will search for it but have little hope of finding it unfortunately.

But now I am curious so I will connect my X-431 Torque to the OBDII port, and drive the car around shifting, putting the trans in neutral at stop lights and leaving it in 1st gear, save the data for later examination with an eye towards TCU commands to the clutch to see the position of the TOB.

I will post the data here for independent examination.

I will see if I can find the original thread that recommended the "neutral-at-lights" technique.

I would appreciate a definitive answer since doing the neutral-at-lights thing often leaves me stepping on the accelerator only to produce a satisfying roar, but no movement because the GB is in neutral. Very embarrassing.

Ray

 

Actually I did this test and was surprised to find the clutch was pressurized when in neutral

Please confirm

Thanks

 

Thanks for the information. I will post the log in pdf format here.

Do you by any chance remember the older thread that suggested the neutral-at-lights technique?

Ray

 

no - i will try to look for it in a little while

 

Here is one

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?url=https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/f430-shift-into-neutral-or-keep-it-in-gear-while-standing.298383/&share_tid=298383&share_fid=9080&share_type=t&link_source=app

But if you type this in Google you will get a number of posts

f1 neutral f430 ferrari downshifting

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

 

I recommend replacing your TCU with a CS version. It will change the car and you will never regret it. I wish someone told me that when I bought my 360.

 

I’m a coast with neutral guy in a manual. I’ve tried that technique in the Scud and it always feels like a clusterf-k when coasting with neutral and trying to re-engage into gear when traffic starts moving. Seems like you cleared some of this up because I always felt the transmission was “lost” in trying to figure out where it’s supposed to be. I also found the shifting to be quite laggy when going from neutral into gear selection.

 

To do a really good job on setting PIS, you need to be looking at movement of the output shaft and that is best done by an expert. The idea is to get PIS as low as possible without the output shaft moving, so it is a trial and error thing. Easy for a pro to do after several thousand times, not as easy for an amateur.

The technique for getting her going from neutral has always worked for me and I have had my F1 car for over 13 years now.

Bob- Make sure and maintain your F1 system. I have my techs suck out half the fluid with a turkey baster every year so she does not need to be bled. Every three years time for a full fluid change, bleed, leak check, and self-test. Ferrari did not figure out that needed to be done until the 599 came out.


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Thanks Flash, that is the thread I was referring to in my post.

On the second page of that thread Taz writes:

I don't quite understand why the TOB would be under pressure even in neutral. In a 3-pedal car with the clutch disengaged in neutral there is no pressure on it.

But I'll run the test and look at the raw data and see what I can find.

Thanks again!

Ray

 

Modern hydraulic and self-adjusting cable clutch release systems require a preload on the release bearing. In hydraulic systems, the preload is provided by a spring in the slave cylinder. This preload causes the release bearing to run constantly on the clutch diaphragm fingers when the engine is running.

 

That's the strategy selected by Ferrari or Magneti Marelli for the F1.
When you stop at a light, with the engine running, in 1st or in N, the clutch is commanded open (a bit more opened in N than in 1st). So, whatever the selected gear (or N) is the ToB is pushing on the mechanism.
I would have to check but it is well possible that after 10 min or so, standstill in N, the F1 system finally closes the clutch and releases pressure from the ToB.

 

Then the TOB must fail rather quickly in a system such as you describe. It would seem to me that the TOB wears out and fails long before the driven disk is worn down from friction with the flywheel. The diaphragm fingers on the pressure plate must also wear quickly. That would explain why clutch life is such an issue with these cars. This is rather depressing information. I have put well over 100,000 miles on some of my Corvette 6-speed cars and clutch life was never an issue. That would explain why 14-year old 430s are sold with very low mileage. Sell it before the clutch fails seems to be the rationale.

But thanks for the information, and thanks to eric355, and flash32.

Ray

 

Here is a link to the Aldous Voice explanation of the F1 system and clutch operation with a useful video animation of clutch operation

https://aldousvoice.com/2014/08/07/ferrari-f1-clutch-operation/

Ray

 

I’ve had our 2001 360 spider for 4 years and we’re just getting a fresh clutch this week, it did a tad over 40,000 klms on the last one, 30,000 of those klms with us and I drive it with gusto around our mountains out here in western Sydney Australia, I guess the longer the road trips the less the clutch is used so plan those long drives and have fun
Our cars done 122,000klms and getting better with each run

 

Anyone wanting to improve shifting and supposedly better sustain clutch life can take a look at the Formula Dynamics module too. It's an add on so you don't have to buy a whole new TCU. My GranTurismo has one installed and the previous owner said it made a huge difference. It is supposed to sharpen the shifts and from what I've seen in videos of other GT's mine does seem to shift faster (which would logically in my mind anyway mean at least slightly less clutch wear).

No affiliation or anything. On my car the software really speeds up the shifts when the throttle is at least 80% and RPMs above 5,500. They are very quick when up in that range.

http://www.formuladynamics.com/products/f360_f1em/f360_f1em.php

Thanks for the info, I'm kind of lurking here reading threads since I am still learning about my car too and it's similar system and don't find much info elsewhere. I did see somewhere else like was already mentioned above, if you are sitting still and take your foot off the brake and the car starts pulling, it needs adjusting. Mine will roll if on a hill but otherwise just sits there.

I waffle back and forth between shifting to N when coming to a stop and just letting the car downshift. After reading this thread and thinking though I'll probably just go back to hitting N just to avoid the extra downshifts. That makes sense to me, dunno if it's right or not.

 

With the clutch out in neutral the rattling is gear chatter from the unloaded backlash and perfectly normal. All my manual BMW's have done it. Noise from a bad TOB happens when you depress the clutch. Some cars have the TOB sprung on to the clutch fingers and they spin all the time. Some have the TOB sprung away giving some free play.