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Schumacher worked harder, Hamilton has more talent - Massa

Discussion in 'F1' started by cmos, Oct 27, 2020.

  1. william

    william F1 World Champ
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    Jun 3, 2006
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    William Denoyelles

    That your take on it, and you may be right, but the World Drivers Championship was created first, and started in 1950.

    The World Constructors Championship was only thought after much later and introduced only in 1959.

    I think the public was more interested in the drivers than the cars; at some points, 2 or 3 makes only filled the grid, and many were private entries.
     
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  3. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

    May 12, 2007
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    Yes I get your analogy, fortunately one would hope fans of Ferrari are more lets say, not as brash for want of a better word.

    My point is as time has gone on and Hamilton's achievements ect have increased and become more impressive, try as I might I now really struggle to see the other side of the argument, as I have said the if's and but's are becoming really tiresome, and seemingly mostly posted for effect, so to me and surely other folk it just comes over as desperately clutching at straws, maybe it's in the vain hope that folk would change there mind on what is blindingly staring them in the face.

    So besides the fact whether you are into statistics or not, it is mind numbing to me how anyone can dismiss and explain away Hamilton's achievements over such a period, and there is only so long folk can play the he just got lucky...card.

    The downside is if folk quit with lame excuses, and it carries on going round in circles it will be quieter on here, however I'd say it would be better to all just agree that Hamilton and the Merc juggernaut are the ones to beat. ;)
     
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  4. Jim Moscardini

    Oct 8, 2020
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    Jim Moscardini
    Point taken. Thanks for the research.
     
  5. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Three Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
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    +1
    Schumachers era the cars where driven at or just uunder their limit for the entire race.

    Now the cars do a quick couple of laps, and then get into the conserving mode. Conserve tyres. Conserve Fuel. Conserve engines.
     
  6. Remy Zero

    Remy Zero Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 26, 2005
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    MC Cool Breeze
    Completely agree. Those days, with the refueling, it's a proper sprint F1 race. These days, the cars go max out maybe just 6-8 laps, and then everything is turned down, and the drivers 'manage' not race.
     
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  8. SimCity3

    SimCity3 Formula 3


    From my point of view there is no disputing Mercedes success with Hamilton in their car.
    We also cannot argue with their P1 and P2 in the championship. It was the same with Rosberg.
    Mercedes have smashed F1
     
  9. SimCity3

    SimCity3 Formula 3


    This is the fundamental problem with F1.
    As a sport it should solely be a drivers championship.

    How can a technology research platform be sporting ?

    Team principals have admitted that very little tech ends up in street cars, because the street cars have already developed said tech items before.
     
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  10. Remy Zero

    Remy Zero Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 26, 2005
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    For me, Michael made an ordinary car looked extraordinary.

    Hamilton in an ordinary car, is just ordinary.

    Since MS, the best pilot out there, is Fernando. As much as i dislike him, that's the truth. The way he dragged that POS Ferrari to second is the WDC is Schumacher-esque.

    Hamilton have never done something like that. So yea...
     
  11. Jim Moscardini

    Oct 8, 2020
    19
    Gainesville, VA USA
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    Jim Moscardini
    With respect to “luck”, also consider that today we have mandated reliability (I absolutely HATE this), whereas yesterday’s drivers were up against technical limitations and had many more ka-blooies (which I loved). So it took much more talent to consistently keep your machine on the edge and still finish the race. No one could touch MS in that regard. He was amazing. The Mercs are incredibly reliable and driven below their limitations for most of the race. They are the fastest cars out there. Anyone driving a Mercedes with reasonable talent is going to do well.
     
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  13. ktu

    ktu Formula 3

    May 30, 2012
    1,648
    I disagree, Sterling Moss said the cars are more reliable today. Which means drivers can show their talent more consistent. No longer can a bad driver get a better result because the good driver had a mechanical issue.
     
  14. Jim Moscardini

    Oct 8, 2020
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    Jim Moscardini
    Interesting take, but I think MS’s ability to bring the car home AND win still deserves a lot of respect.
     
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  15. Natkingcolebasket69

    Natkingcolebasket69 F1 Veteran
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  16. Igor Ound

    Igor Ound F1 Veteran

    Sep 30, 2012
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    Schumi in Elton’s cars would have won a lot more than him. Opposite, not a chance.
     
  17. Mark(study)

    Mark(study) F1 Veteran

    Oct 13, 2001
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    Great job Lewis! Surpasses 5,000 laps leading in F1
     
  18. william

    william F1 World Champ
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    Pure supposition; I would say malicious.
     
  19. ktu

    ktu Formula 3

    May 30, 2012
    1,648
    Can you predict the lottery as well?
     
  20. ktu

    ktu Formula 3

    May 30, 2012
    1,648
  21. Natkingcolebasket69

    Natkingcolebasket69 F1 Veteran
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    He also says Alain was the best ever. U skipped that part.
    I agree Schumacher was an arse but quite frankly doubt the contract changed a lot as he was much faster than his teammates


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  22. ktu

    ktu Formula 3

    May 30, 2012
    1,648
    Yes I read that part, he said Alain was the best but then said Hamilton had chance to be the best. Its irrevelant anyway as its impossible to know who's best. How do we know that Schumacher is much faster than his tam mates when the contract forbids the team mate from going faster?
     
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  23. Natkingcolebasket69

    Natkingcolebasket69 F1 Veteran
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    When u finish most races 20 seconds behind that says it all . He was #1 and that’s what made them work. U really think today at imola if bottas was 2nd behind Hamilton they would have let him stay 10
    Extra laps like they did with Hamilton? Nope. Because he is #2 and Hamilton earnt his #1 status.

    There could be a conversation to be had if Schumacher’s teammate finished every year 2nd and close to him but let’s see:
    94-champion -verstappen irrelevant
    95-champion-Herbert 4th
    96-3rd Irvine-10th
    97-2nd (dq)-Irvine 7th
    98-2nd Irvine 4th
    99-5th irvine-2nd
    00-1st- bar 4th
    01-1st bar 3rd
    02-1st bar 2 (144points vs 77)
    03-1 and 4th bar
    04-1 and 2 (148 vs 114 points)
    05-3rd vs bar 8th
    06-2 vs 3rd 121 points vs 80.


    I mean I’m sure Eddie Jordan has a point but on paper results aren’t close.


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  24. ktu

    ktu Formula 3

    May 30, 2012
    1,648
    Good info, you actually reveal how weak Schumacher's team mate roster look compared to Senna's and Hamilton. At any rate no one can know how it would pan out if the clauses didn't exist. My point is what other champion does this? He was not allowed to have a champion team mate as Hamilton and Senna did, its these and other suspicions that may be the reason most of his team mates rate Ham higher. Ham's career remains much cleaner and honest than Schumacher's.
     
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  25. Natkingcolebasket69

    Natkingcolebasket69 F1 Veteran
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    Well u choose to see them as weaker- but what about him being much better driver?
    U often present Hamilton’s case for being great with his 08 season winning in an inferior car and kovalainen finishing 7/8 right? So why not say the same for Schumacher in all the instances his teammate were not on par?


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  26. ktu

    ktu Formula 3

    May 30, 2012
    1,648
    Yeah he may have been that much better, but why have the clause? That introduces what ifs. Still I think Senna and Hamilton beating champion team mates in their prime says more. Still Shcumi was great.
     
  27. Natkingcolebasket69

    Natkingcolebasket69 F1 Veteran
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    It’s an extreme clause but not that far off from Prost 93’s no senna clause at Williams or team orders... but it worked for Ferrari 5 straight titles I think they would do it again!


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  28. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    7,409
    Much of what is banned (and some that is not) in F1 reaches road cars::
    a) computer controlled suspensions (although not as intricate as F1)
    b) underbody aerodynamics (since 1995)
    c) Automatic Braking Systems (both ABS and pre-safe)
    d) sensors all over the car (is anyone besides you, should cruise control slow down for vehicle in front of you,is it cold enough that the default should be rain/ice mode,...)

    But street cars are engineered to be put together once while race cars are engineered to be taken apart after each event.
     

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