Congrats. Awesome SCUD. Enjoy your ride. One day I might get one, sooner I hope.
Congratulations, DL! Gorgeous color and you got a sweet deal. I picked mine up yesterday, too. Put about 500 miles on it. Attached is a quick peek. Interesting thread with some interesting opinions/rants. I would say that there are dreamer buyers and dreamer sellers. From the ones I've seen actually sell, I think F430GT's "pricing model" is right on the button -- or at least with in a couple $K. I paid about $2K over Rad's model, but mine is highly optioned with even the Alcantara wheel well covers. It had my preferred colors/options just about perfect, so I wasn't about to let $1K or $2K get in the way. Image Unavailable, Please Login
H20Skiers insights into dealer economics are interesting. Some observations: 1) Assuming dealers max out their credit lines (and why wouldn't they at the 40% gross margins H20Skier claims), then the only reason to sell a car below its depreciated amount would be if another, more desirable (read profitable) car appeared and the dealer needed to free up the capital to buy it. This is the "opportunity cost" that is hard to quantify but very real. 2) As H20Skier claims, unlike stocks, the used car market is thin and illiquid. How many people are walking around in this economy with $200k, mostly cash, to spend on a toy? Not many. This means bids are rare and there is not always a bid for their car. By my math, if you assume a depreciation rate of 10% per year, and 8% interest (and this doesn't include advertising, electricity, rent, etc.) then they begin to lose money once they hold the car beyond 2 years -- the carrying costs eat up the margin. 3) So therefore it becomes a volume game, H20 implies that they sell "100's" of cars. I do not believe these dealers are moving hundreds of cars per year but that is based purely on observation (and Michael Sheehan's commentary) so I cannot support this completely. And if they're only making $10k per car over a 1-2 year time frame, you've got to sell a lot of cars to make it worthwhile (or have a Toyota dealership in the back lot).
Well I spent 20 minutes responding to this on my phone to then have Tapatalk disconnect from Fchat and lose my response so here's the cliff notes version. Dealers are easily making this percentage. For you guys to think they are selling these cars and making 10k you are crazy. Only on the cars they turn quickly. To answer your question yes I believe these dealers are selling well over 100 cars a year but not all new. Many Chevy Ford type dealerships push well over 100 new a month. Some larger dealers 4 times that. Most Ferrari dealers only sell about 2 to 4 new cars a month. That's why they make a lot more profit on these. My guess and it's a guess is they mostly are turning about $60k a new car. 458? Scud? 599? Either one. Ferrari on the other hand is making much more. I would say that it costs Maranello about 85k to make a 458. What's the sticker price? 300k is probably about the average. So Ferrari is most likely selling this car to the dealer in the 200-240k range. Yes I think they triple their cost on these cars. Dealers then make their markup to MSRP or in some cases above MSRP. Remember dealers aren't all about new car sales. It's a full package with service and finance and used car sales that really make them profitable. These cars are cash cows or Ferrari wouldn't have 6500 employees with F1 cars running year after year and factory Ferrari sponsored road cars worldwide as well. That's not free. Ferrari also has to warrant these cars. I'm sure they figure a nice hefty chunk for each car to cover their back end. Ferrari has to have something out there for R and D as well. Back to the dealers and the cars. No I don't think that everyone has 100-300k in their pocket to purchase these cars. Dealers don't want you to write a check. Dealers want you to finance the hell out of these cars. It's just one more way for them to make a profit. They get a nice bank kickback every time someone finances one of these beasts. That's not at all about what my two posts have been about. My posts were an answer to the question as to why these dealers can sit on a car for a year or longer if they want to. My model was directed totally to that question. Dealers sell a lot of cars faster. Until this economic turn down the New Ferrari's being purchased were hand selected clients that FIT the Ferrari criteria. Meaning they did what their local dealer asked of them. Purchased one or two used cars from them prior. Ordered a new car based on the fact they would be trading in another car for the new car being purchased. This insured the dealer would typically have 3 cars to sell for every new car sold. Until you got into the New car ordering regime that happens where the same guys continued to purchase the newest and greatest car Ferrari made every year. This guaranteed repeat business for these dealers and also guaranteed these dealers had great used cars to sell. It was a Win Win for the dealers and Ferrari and the clients were the ones taking the massive depreciation hits. So you questioned who is financing all of these cars? What bank wouldn't back this model would be my question? Yes I think they turn this money with little out of pocket for each car. Remember most dealers could have a million or so out of pocket just to keep 3 million worth of inventory. Again I've not even discussed the Service side. Finance the same. Dealers are making money off of you guys even if you think they are really only making 10k a car. Until this turn down remember that the cars that sat on the lot for a year or longer where the cars that were priced horribly wrong. That's changed. The cars aren't priced incorrectly but they constant customer flow has lagged. Why wouldn't it we are in a depression/recession. Reading your first remark yes I believe if a dealer wants to free up space/capital for another more desirable car they wholesale it to another dealer. Get it off the books and free up the cash. This happens all the time. I believe Stokpro responded on this thread a while ago. He watches the CS market more than I watch my wife's tata's (which is an awful lot) and I bet he can tell you how many time Certain CS's change between dealerships. It happens quit often in the high end car market. They move them to possibly peak interest in another part of the country. A part of the country that doesn't hang every thought on an Fchat Forum or Internet.com selling site. There still are some old school buyers out there that want to actually walk into a dealer and smell the tires and sit in the seats before a purchase. Typical bait and switch. Realtors do this as well. If they have a high end home sitting on the market every once in a while they actually RAISE the price to possibly peak the interest of a buyer that wasn't looking in a price range below a certain level. If you watch some of these Ferrari's the same stupid things happen. It's laughable in my book does sometimes does create interest in these cars. I also don't believe that used cars are thin and illiquid. I simply told the poster that compared them to stocks that there is always a buyer for stocks. Everyday you can sell your Apple Microsoft or MO. So there is a constant buyer stream for these assets. Used exotics don't have a constant buyer pool therefore dealers must plan to hold these cars for an averaged out amount of time. Obviously with my model the faster they sell the more money they make. Therefor some cars never even hit the market and are sold quicker than some of you guys are done in bed with your wives. And yes everyone that sells anything the more Volume you sell the more you make. So I guess new/used car sales are a volume thing. In the car business you don't have to sell Ferrari's to get rich. Actually to the contrary I would say that high end dealerships are the least profitable at the end of the year. I've got friends that sell 15-50k used cars and they are filthy....Think about low / no overhead 100's of cars a month selling them at a 5k-15k profit. Same model as I've given you. It doesn't take much to make mid 7 figures a year selling 4 year old Chevy's. Any other questions
With all these dealer talks I will share my experience on the Scuderia I just put a deposit on. It was priced 3,750,000Kc (200,000USD) about 6months ago at the dealer that services my other cars(Im a long time customer). The car is the owners daily driver, so well maintained, no story(my good friend works in the service department). 2 months ago the price dropped to 3,500,000Kc (185,000USD). Winter is coming and here in Czech you cant drive a car for about 3-4months. So I faded off searching, because I was away the last month(and could not enjoy it before) and whatever I would buy would go direct in storage for next year use in Feb/Mar. Thought I could save some if waited. 1 month ago they offered me the car for 3,000,000Kc (159,000USD) I turned down the sale originally. Mainly because I was going to pay cash for the car and when I made the choice of waiting till next year I invested some of the money elsewhere and I did not have the total sum in cash. In the end, recently the Czech Krown has drop compared to the euro and since that month this car became about 8,000euro cheaper( I get paid in Euro ). So this part does not count in the story regarding the dealer droping the price, but put me in the game of serious looking again. When I browsed Mobile.de for Scuderia's, this is the only yellow one with strips and race harness. Never had a panel repainted. So deposit was paid and I wont drive her till......Maybe Feb next year. I dont know if you can count this story as a dealer, cause its actually a private car of the owner of the company. But thought I would share. This is so true, Ive never bought a car through finance. However every time I talk about price and I buy, they always offer lower sale price with finance. Usually I always pay a little more cash.
I to offered $175k in August when they listed it on their website for $179k. Miraculously the price went up to $199k after my offer and they were not in a mood to negotiate......
You know the dealer doesn't really have to sell the car to you. They can always wholesale it, is less trouble than selling the car to you. They do that if they have to turn their inventory. So..stop dreaming about finding a firesale deal. "There must be some deal that's better than this" is just a lame excuse to give yourself a reason not to buy. If you are not ready, don't fricking buy. if $10k-$20k price drop is going to make you regret then don't buy. If you expect to make money, then don't buy...is a car,is not limited edition, it depreciates. If you want to make money, there are other stuff that you can buy to make money. If you want to enjoy it buy it and stop wondering because by the time it reach your price point there will be something getting close to your dream price too. like we are going to see you whine about the same thing on the next board 10 from now.
Interesting scenario here in Australia. Official dealers have 3 Scuds available. All 08's. There is an 09 with "another dealer" who used to be one of the official dealers. I have bought from him before and trust him. Now all 3 of dealers cars were priced exactly the same 2 months ago ($450k). A month ago they all dropped the price to $399k. This other dealer pops on the market with the 09 at $365k (with a Power Cube included). This is in a market that sells about 100 Fcars per annum and we have about 30 430's floating around the second hand market. So 4 Scuds is a lot to choose from. The dealer Scud's have been sitting about 8 months already and Dec/Jan in Australia is "dead" so chances of a sale are probably slim. So in reality the dealers are looking at the Scuds sitting for a minimum of 10 months BTW: I will probably put in an offer this week for one of them (I have a 430 already). So the question is whats a fare price?
H20: Thanks for your fascinating insights. But yes, I have more questions for you (that hopefully others on here will find useful). 1) So as a buyer, would you recommend seeking out a private party seller to get the best price? It seems like the dealerships offer low prices and sell at higher prices: is there benefit to cutting out the middleman? Obviously this applies to ferrarichat types who would get a PPI, know some of the options available, etc. My aunt buying her Camry might be better served at a dealership... 2) I am not clear on what you think the recession has done to dealerships: does this put the buyer in a stronger position or have the dealers adjusted? 3) What would you recommend as a negotiation approach to all of those potential Scud buyers out there? Expect $3-5k off list but don't wait around to get more? Do dealers ever get in "bidding wars" with each other?
Reading this topic it really is getting dragged on. A few things I think everyone can agree on is A. This forum has many dreamers that will never buy a car if they are complaining about 5k today in price they will be the same complaining about 5k in a few years from now. B. If banks are firming up lending money to dealerships as ICE is pointing out then surely they must be firming up lending practices to the dreamers looking to buy these cars no? It must be going both ways. So I would say most of the prices you see now most buyers are cash in hand. I don't think to many banks into fronting loans for 3 to 4 year old ferrari's as in the past. I expect most dealers could care less weather one finances a car or not, the person willing to pay the price gets the car regardless. And C. The Ferrari Scuderia is clearly a car in demand, this post alone shows a few new buyers have come out of the wood works to post the car they have recently bought, with that said since these bad economics of times & people are still buying the scuderia in nice numbers, shows the car is in demand and I am sure dealers around the country are taking note, maybe that is why they are holding firm on the prices? So for all you dreamers keep the dream alive guys like you is what helps the car keep the prices higher, more demand/talk on models leads to higher selling prices. Bottom line is the Ferrari Scuderia is a sick car, money is being printed everyday Ferrari Scuderia's are not being built everyday. Everyone should enjoy what they can afford. Spending countless hours trying to talk down a price on a car will never change the market. The trading prices of the current cars is all we need to look at to determine the price of these cars. Again the going rate for nice condition scuderia's run from 180k to 200k. Your mileage may vary.
Why not a private party would be my question. They will negotiate better and as long as you get a solid PPI and check out the car it won't matter. No dealers wont bid against each other. They have a product and will wait for the buyer. Recession has done one thing smaller buyer pool which has in turn created less cars to sell keeping supply and demand close. People that typically would sell cars yearly arent anymore making less cars available to tire kickers and dreamers offering 20k less LMAO. Get real guys you either have the money or don't. PERIOD. Negotiate knowing 5k less might get the car. Offer 10k less expect a counter and buy it. It's only 5k or a little more. 2% of the price of the car. It's nothing if you can actually afford a 200k car. Nothing. yes banks are tighter so you need to have better credit if you are financing. I only pay cash for toys so I don't know how tight they are. Tighter money doesn't mean dealers don't want you to finance because the typical dealer makes a nice kickback when they get you financed so yes dealers enjoy you financing. Scuds are still in demand I agree. I bet half or less are on the market than last year. Just like the CS"s
And to add to it I don't blame the dealers a bit. They are in business to make money. Like all of us. I'm not a dealer just a consumer with a realistic POV of what these things should sell for. I also don't care that my Ferraris have lost value like they have. I bought them to drive and for nothing else.
"Negotiate knowing 5k less might get the car. Offer 10k less expect a counter and buy it. It's only 5k or a little more. 2% of the price of the car. It's nothing if you can actually afford a 200k car. Nothing." The above is some good common sense. Surely everyone on here knows this. But............maybe not. Keep this in your head and you can negotiate a fair deal. There is "no free ride"! I would like to have a Scuderia now, but I don't feel like I can afford it. Simple as that.
IMHO whoever starts a thread called Scud prices collapsing, or supports similar statements, has an agenda, simple as that. If there's one thing I dislike about Fchat its people that want to argue values to no end. Most people that actually own Scuds paid well over 200k for them and really doen't care what the velocity of the the depreciation curve is. Ownership of the car is for the sole purpose to enjoy it, not to look at it like a savings account you check the balance of once a month. If the value of the car goes down 10K in one month or ten months, most owners don't really give a damn because its not the reason they bought the car in the first place. Its just my opinion that if you're worried that you Might loose 5-10k in 3 months, than maybe you shouldn't be looking at the car.
Amen brother, I can say one thing every time I'm driving the 16m the last thing on my mind is money. I agree it's kind of shady so many non f-car owners give such a strong view on re-sale pricing. Stop the bench warming guys and join the game buy a car.
Another +1 Non F car owners keep hoping F cars dwindle down to nothing with value. Out of 27,000 people that have viewed this thread, only a handful of those viewing actually buy a scud or any F car for that matter, most dream.....and never actually get into the game. It seems many non F car owners obsess over values on this forum, you either can afford one, or you cant!
Actually there are a few 16M owners extremely offensive, including this post. Who cares if some buy brand new, or carefully select their right time to you. Since you already own a Scud/16M this is the last thread you even need to read and or post in. The OP is highly respected here and is a Scud owner, so might want to do some research before posting such nonsense. Threads like these make potential owners and even actual owners much more informed, and actually quite a few that followed this thread have bought recently.
Richard is A) in Europe and B) was trying to figure out of the car was damaged when he started this thread. Unfortunately, a lot of people put their 2 cents in over the months and turned this thread into....
