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Scud vs 430 rear bars

Discussion in '360/430' started by SSR, Jan 25, 2010.

  1. SSR

    SSR Formula 3

    Jun 14, 2007
    1,134
    What is the diff?
    Scud are thicker ?

    Part number 430 210234
    part number 430 scud 198416
     
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  3. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2003
    1,535
    Hong Kong, Tokyo
    Full Name:
    Wayne
    430's 210234 rear bar is used on 430, 430 Spider and 430 Challenge soft option at 20mm diameter according my info.

    430 Scuderia's 198416 is the same as 360CS. I don't have either car so don't know the diameter of that one.

    For your information, on my 360 Challenge and 430 Challenge standard rear bar is 179778 which is 22mm diameter.

    Both 210234 and 179778 are solid steel bars, so they are relatively heavy. I don't know what Scuderia's bar material is though.

    I have recently made a few hollow tube chrome moly rear bars in various diameter and with adjustable end link location holes for my 430C because I couldn't find anyone that sells them.
     
  4. SSR

    SSR Formula 3

    Jun 14, 2007
    1,134
    Good info thanks,can you sell a thicker bar?
     
  5. Driftracer3

    Driftracer3 Formula Junior

    Jan 5, 2006
    635
    Novitec has a 22mm front and 26mm rear set of sway bars.
     
  6. ZIP22

    ZIP22 Karting

    Jun 7, 2009
    157
    +1 :)
     
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  8. F430GT

    F430GT Formula 3

    Sep 29, 2005
    1,300
    Marco Island, FL
    Scuderia and Stradale sway bars are: F:19mm, R:21.5mm

    They are still in the soft side, and I would not consider them as an upgrade for a F430 or Modena, because they are barely stiffer and expensive.

    The best option I found was from Novitec: F:22m, R:26mm. They fit the Modena, Stradale, F430, Scuderia and 16M. The higher ratio in the rear reduces the understeer present in all these cars.

    For adjustable options, they have to be custom made sway bars.

    When lowering a 360/430, it is recommended to install adjustable drop links, as the sway bars get pre-loaded. Lots of people lower their cars without paying attention to sway bar pre-load, reduced suspension travel, toe and camber changes. They just drive the car, the car looks better, but handling has been compromised.

    When lowering these cars, consider stiffer bars, stiffer springs, adjustable drop links and re-align it.

    I used four different approaches to determine ideal spring rates for road use in the F430 and Scuderia, and they all came pretty close.

    F430: F:525#/700#
    Scuderia F:650#/800#

    This is for road use on the stock tires provided (F430 with street tires, Scuderia with race compound road tires).

    For slicks and semi-slick race tires (R6, R1, V710, A6) the spring rates move around twice the recommended spring rates above, with fine tuning depending on the compound, car's weight, aero, wheel/tire sizes, etc. I found that happy spot at 1100#/1600# for my 295/345 A6 tires.

    Motion ratio (wheel rate) for the 360 and 430 is 0.7
     
  9. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2003
    1,535
    Hong Kong, Tokyo
    Full Name:
    Wayne
    #7 cwwhk, Jan 26, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2010
    I made a couple of 24mm solid bars before I switched to using hollow style bars.

    I am not sure where my 24mm bars are now, so I'll have to find them. PM me if you are interested.
     
  10. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2003
    1,535
    Hong Kong, Tokyo
    Full Name:
    Wayne
    Novitec 26mm rear bars must be really heavy. Do you know the weight?

    To save weight I went through a lot of trouble to import seamless 4130 CrMo aircraft tubing from US to make the hollow bars then heat treat based on MIL-H-6875 spec. Very nice and light. Weighs a fraction of OEM solid bars.
     
  11. ZIP22

    ZIP22 Karting

    Jun 7, 2009
    157

    Where do you get adjustable drop links? I'm assuming the monoball type?


    As for the spring rates for the F430: F:525#/700#

    was this with the OEM shock setup?

    I'm used to modding my E46M3 and 996TT (suspensions, exhaust systems, engine...etc) but the aftermarket support on these cars is slim, to super expensive, relative for similar parts that are offered for BMWs and Porsches. ;-)


    Thanks!
     
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  13. SSR

    SSR Formula 3

    Jun 14, 2007
    1,134
    WOW super info,I want to buy only the rear 26mm bar NR sells anly front and rear.
    i tested the scud with F425 and R600 springs in the track last weekend and the car has a lot of understeer like most F cars.

    So I need someone to sell me a 26mm rear bar and front and rear adj links,who can built this kit?
     
  14. Driftracer3

    Driftracer3 Formula Junior

    Jan 5, 2006
    635
    Novitec only has the front and rear together as a kit. I think the factory sway bar links are adjustable to some extent, so that shouldnt be a problem.
     
  15. ZIP22

    ZIP22 Karting

    Jun 7, 2009
    157
    No they are not adjustable if you are referencing to the F430 suspension.
     
  16. SSR

    SSR Formula 3

    Jun 14, 2007
    1,134
    Correct you cant adjust the bars,adjustable end links will be great to eliminate pressure from bars and realign them whith lowered cars.
     
  17. SSR

    SSR Formula 3

    Jun 14, 2007
    1,134
    Bump...
     
  18. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2003
    1,535
    Hong Kong, Tokyo
    Full Name:
    Wayne
    #15 cwwhk, Jan 27, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    SSR:

    I don't know your driving style, track layout, or tire choice, but 26mm rear bar seems way over the top. I understand your rationale that this will reduce the understeer, but IMHO this is really not the optimal approach. Basically instead of solving the lack of front grip problem, a really stiff rear bar will just hamper rear grip. Although this will make the car feel more balanced, car will actually be slower. Less rear grip affects power exit and high speed transitions. As general rule of thumb, one usually always try to solve the problem area, rather than trying to hamper well performing aspects of the car just so it will match the poor performing aspect of the car.

    As reference, 430GT2 on slicks as base setup has rear bar that's about equivalent to 430 Challenge OEM style standard 22mm solid core bar.

    Front GT2 as base setup has bar that is equivalent to about an OEM style 27mm solid core bar; granted GT2 has much wider front track and is on slicks.

    Below are pictures of OEM bars first, then followed by adjustable bars I made for my 430 in GT3 spec. Front is equivalent to a 27mm rear is equivalent to 22mm. To adjust my front bar you rotate the end arms, which in turn change the stiffness of the arms, but the central tube stiffness is not changed. To adjust the rear bar by using one of 3 holes on the end arms.

    By the way, the only true cure for understeer is to get some new wider front wheels to accept wider tires that also have wider offset for wider front track.
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  19. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2003
    1,535
    Hong Kong, Tokyo
    Full Name:
    Wayne
    #16 cwwhk, Jan 27, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  20. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2003
    1,535
    Hong Kong, Tokyo
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    Wayne
    One more thing. Torsional stiffness is NOT linear to diameter. It's a function of the polar moment of inertia of the bar's cross section, which is a function of the diameter to the power of 4.

    So assuming the same material is used, then 22mm is 46% stiffer than 20mm diameter solid bar. 24mm is 107% stiffer than 20mm. And 26mm is a whopping 186% stiffer than 20mm.

    Due to this non linear relationship, material near the outer diameter contributes the most towards torsional stiffness. That's why all real racing anti-roll bars are hollow tubes to get maximum stiffness with minimal weight. It also reduces internal shear stress.

    Amazing I still remember this stuff from college. :D
     
    janmante likes this.
  21. SSR

    SSR Formula 3

    Jun 14, 2007
    1,134
    Thanks great info and pics.
    In my old 430 I had this setup:

    FRONT
    OEM bar
    245 30 20 Michelin Pilot Sport Cup
    34psi
    450 lb springs
    Camber 1.8
    TOE .05 per side

    REAR
    NOVITEC bar
    315 25 20 MPSC
    36psi
    600 lb springs
    Camber 1.9
    TOE 1mm per side

    RIDE HEIGHT 1 finger fender to tire gap FRONT and REAR.

    First I had both NR bars and then returned to OEM in the front and the car was a little bit better when cornering.

    So I will like to have at least the same rear bar diameter like in the NR for the Scud,what do you think?
    Also adj end links will be very nice...
     
  22. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2003
    1,535
    Hong Kong, Tokyo
    Full Name:
    Wayne
    #19 cwwhk, Jan 27, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2010
    It does not make sense to me that you go with a wider than OEM 315 rear tire which give you more rear grip (ie. more understeer) but also takes more horse power to run, then you want to go with a 26mm rear bar to reduce rear grip therefore reduce understeer.

    If I were you I'd roll your front fenders to give maximum tire clearance and then get wider front wheels and tires with wider offset. Or the cheaper alternative of putting as wide as a wheel spacer (probably in the 10mm to 15mm range) as possible. This way you are actually improving front grip which goes to solve the root of your problem. Hill Engineering sells some nicely made spacers in various thickness. Ricambi carries them for US clients. No affiliation to either.

    Then I'd also go back to a 290mm rear tire because you don't really need a 310mm. I know it looks cool, but you have to decide if you want to look cool or go fast. Two are not necessarily the same set up.

    After that then I'd try 22mm OEM rear bar to start and tweak to 24mm at most and maybe even back down to 20mm for best acceleration out of the corners.

    Here is a Youtube link of my 430 at Macau street circuit race on 22mm OEM rear bar. I didn't go with a 24mm which would have made the high speed Resevoir Bend and Mandarin Bend sphincter clinching moments if I ever have to lift on the throttle. :D

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzsoDpXkuSQ

    Oh and I'd get a good pyrometer to measure tire temperature profile from inner edge, middle, to outer edge. Without that info you have no way of quantifying the effectiveness of tire pressure, camber, and suspension setup changes. A very good tire pressure gauge is also indispensable. Longacre sells some pretty good gauges. Again no affiliation.
     
  23. SSR

    SSR Formula 3

    Jun 14, 2007
    1,134
    Thanks im with you widder tires will make car slower,this is a street use car and I go out on weekends to some other cityes so I like a good set up.
    I use 315 because this is the only 20" tire that MPSC makes (Threatware 80) and yes the car looks very cool I know in terms of perf this is not good.
    Where can I get adj endlinks?
     
  24. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2003
    1,535
    Hong Kong, Tokyo
    Full Name:
    Wayne
    #21 cwwhk, Jan 27, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2010
    SSR:

    You can not get adjustable end links for your OEM bars. Please look at my pictures again. OEM bars are just a simple bar bend from one continuous piece of bar stock.

    I custom made my own front and rear bars for my racing use after a lot of research and jumped through many hoops to source materials, contract out machine shop work, and getting heat treatments done. So they are not for commercial resale to make profit. If you really can't find an supplier for an anti-roll bar you want, and you're really serious about getting some bars custom made then PM me. I'll see what I can do to help.
     
    janmante likes this.

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