Seeing something weird with timing light, '78 308 GTS

This is a 1978 Ferrari 308 GTS........on the front distributor ONLY I see it flipping back and forth between two different timing points substantially apart. and it flips very regualarly between the two every second or half second not sure how far apart they are but one is on a lowspot in the pressure plate and the other is on a high spot on the pressure plate for example. Am not seeing timing marks but its lack of stability on the point strobed concerns me.

The rear distributor quite the contrary is quite stable.

This is with the car at a set RPM and it starts serveral minutes after the car is started. For the first few minutes after startup they are both stable then the front distributer starts doing this.

Is what I am seeing the symptoms of the infamous sticking set of points.

I was trying to determinw if the distributer advance mechanisms are funtioning but the front Distributer flips so much I cant tell if I am getting an advance or not for sure. But it appears to be advanceing.

Just trying to determine the problem. Also how do you set your points on the car when you replace them. The manual only manages to confuse me on that aspect. Or does a point replacement HAVE to be done on the bench as the manual appears to say.

I may have owner convinced to do the optical pick up electronic ignition thing. Assumeing prices are competitive.

 

Thats what I am trying to understand. Car does tend to get a bit rough running and the power is way down......is a total dog.

I did try to raise the idle speed a bit and it still does it. so there is maybe a 100 rpm range I varied it seeing the same thing. I doubt its on a cusp or the switchover.

About the miss triggering issue.......when car is first started it doesn't do it, it only starts 2-3 minutes after the car is started. I would think if that was the case it should do it all the time.

Does that make it any more clear guys.....I never saw anything exactly like this since I had a worn out distributer on a Triumph GT6 I used to own. THis distributer is tight and not worn. But that one was all over the place, this is very stable and regular and alternates between two different timing points. and it isn't wandering at all. Well time to shower and get some sleep. Will check this in the AM. Thanks guys.

OH, any tips for replacing the points........with OEM style in case owner insists. without the test bench setup the manual appears to require. Or do you really need it to do it right. Maybe I can convince he to go optical pickup. If you can't DIY the points with your average set of tools. And get them set right.

 

car runs poorly , no power and not as smooth as I believe it should. It did have one really badly burned set of points when I got started on it (rear distributer) and yes it does get even rougher when the instability starts.

 

I did not have the dwell meter with me last night when I was at the guys house so I don't know.

How many of you have replaced points on these. Without the test fixture the manual seems to specify.

I have done MANY sets of point in my life on many brands of cars, and this is the first one to baffle me trying to understand what the manual calls for.

 

You know you just struck upon something there I overlooked. If the front Distributor is flipping R/1 -> R/2 the back one should be too. because they are daisy chained. Now I am not going to get into anything seriously involved, and if I can't have it set right in no more than 2 tries I don't want to mess with it.

Told him due to numerous issues with the ignition system I really did not want to mess with it. But he is real insistant I try. But I don't have unlimited time, I have less than three weeks to finish the top end of a honda engine I am modifying before I leave on vacation. THAT project I have a lot of money invested in and is MY #1 priority. THey got real indignant with me after the Timing Belt job and the carb rebuild because it still wasn't 100%. Told them thats what I was paid to do. He no longer has 26 year old timing belts, and his carborettors are no longer leaking like a sieve and they are balanced. THey were demanding a full or partial refund and I would no longer touch the car. Told them Take it to a Ferrari dealer, have them put in writing where and how I made a mistake and I would refund them 50% of the labor, and really I had no desire to touch the damn car again regardless. Tho weeks later them call begging me to try to fix the ignition issue..........No appologies. But no more accusations. I guess they found out for themselves I did the job right.

Told him the ignition is not right and I really don't have the resources to guarantee I can make it 100% right.

And on top of everything, I was trying to see if I could do it quickly for the price of parts just to get him out of my hair once and for all. I NEVER agreed to fix this problem and I am not messing with points unless its a real quick job.

I don't have the means to get the R/1 - R/2 timing on each distributer set correctly, and I certainly am not going to take time away from a project I started last week to make him happy. I have a real hard time reading the flywheel timing marks as it is.

If I get rid of one of the points they are likely to ***** I changed what was intended to be.

May just tell him order the electronic conversion kit, I'll slap it in, time it and be rid of it.

He's on his own to figure out the NON-working speedo, and the non-working coolant temp guage. I want no parts of it.

 

Well this owner ticked me off pretty bad 2 weeks ago, because I didn't fix an ignition problem I told him to take to the dealer. I contracted to rebuild carbs and timing belt, not fix every little thing it had wrong with it. I am real sure the bearing are good in it, the advance mechanism is not frozen, but the quick check I made yesterday shows it is advancing with RPM's, that is for for a few minutes till it starts this flip flop thing on the front distributer. But does it advance on the same curve as the rear?????????? I have no way of knowing.

I will sit down and reread this post after dinner and compare to the utterly confusing manual to see how long I think I can do points in. If I cant do it all in a few hours tops I want no parts of it. I have another project I have a lot invested in I need to finish and button up and break in prior to taking my much needed vacation. NOTHING means more to me than that. And certainly an ungratefull customer isn't more important.

He got carbs rebuilt and balanced and timing belts and tensioners (yes the bearings did feel rough) for $1,000 labor and parts for cost (another $695). ANd they complained about that because I didn't fix another problem I found for free.

So you can see my lack of excitement. if I can knock this off in an evening it will be worth it to get them out of my hair.

 

I may do that in a few days. AFTER I finish my head work on the Honda I am building. Should have the cams in it tomorrow if the weather holds out.

Need to measure it up for a custom Catalytic converter or a test pipe. New 4-1 header has a larger collector size than stock. So I can get these cams broken in.

But I do see what you guys explained about the R2 points. One may very well be on the cusp and the other just isn't seeing the ground. would be very easy then to "leave it unhooked" to make dealing with it easier. But unless he hounds me I am going to leave it slide. I hate people thinking I owe them more than I agree to do and that I have nothing at all to do with my spare time. If you own a house that alone makes sure you have little time its self. Plus having 4 older vehicles to maintain.

This car has so many little things wrong with it from neglect its not even funny. Solid body, and not really abused, just neglected mainenance and things that has been piling up.

Speedo not working, Temp guage not working, Side mirrors useless because of where they are mounted. Missing all smog gear fot those who live where that kind of thing is important.

THis guy wants a Testarosa and wonders why I get bent about being pushed into fixing something I am not being paid to fix. He makes more in 4 days than I make in a month.

 

I figured as much, that was a typo.

I'll check all that out in a couple days when I get my main project caught up then I will go look at this guys car again.

Well I am going to bet the R-2 wire between front and rear distributers is broken / missing or is just lacking continuity for some reason, definately isn't helping maintain a decent idle the way it is.

Timing appears to be way off too, Will check all this in a few days. Some very valid points have been raised I did not think of.

 

I agree, but how can they crossfire, plug wires are not even close front to back...............Unless there is a grounding issue somehow.

Per timing light it is firing on all 8 but this thing is slowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

I have a 1979 Mercedes 300SD Turbo Diesel that pulls far harder. And thats sad.