self-learning error...help!!! | Page 2 | FerrariChat

self-learning error...help!!!

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by kzsport, Nov 7, 2009.

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  1. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    #26 smg2, Dec 14, 2009
    I'm not a fan on the sd3 for doing the self learning test. I've gone in with the ST05 and found that it records an incorrect procedure when the sd3 is used. I'll use the ST05 on 360's up to '04 then the sd3 for '04 and later TCU's.

    The sd2 or st05 is the preferred option.

    These F1 issues, have run the gamut from a simple lack of proper air bleeding sequence to faulty new seals and prior mechanical damage from accidents.

    a quick check list;
    bleed system
    clutch wear
    proper seal installation in TO bearing
    PIS point
    hydrolic pressure, the 'live' data is only the pressure in the valve body to the accumulator, there is no sensor for the actuator or solenoid lines.
    pump run time
    potentiometer values
    engagement potentiometer arm in actuator, bent or broken?
    gear engagement/selector pawl in correct alignment?
    potentiometer connectors not reversed, this happens as they are not tagged or marked different.
    F1 oil flushed and new
    correct F1 oil, a bit technical but std automatic trans fluid is not up to the task of F1 systems pressure/temp and according to white paper research I've done. the automatic trans fluid will shear before the oil spec'd by Ferrari for the system. Yes I know many places use the trans fluid and have for yrs. I do suspect that is now why many of these issues are now happening. over time the shear and break down have worn the seals to where they are starting to leak beyond the design limit.

    You can also do a run with data acquisition recording the parameters for TO travel, potentiometer values, pump cycle signal and pressure. gear selected and paddle signal.

    between those it'll help point out the problem.
     
  2. kzsport

    kzsport Karting

    Feb 23, 2008
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    BRIAN
    #27 kzsport, Dec 15, 2009
    The ferrari dealership carry out bleeding f1 actuator was pull the shift actuator off the gearbox and back screws out while bleeding...I saw it.
    But nothing worked after bleeded...
     
  3. kzsport

    kzsport Karting

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    BRIAN
    #28 kzsport, Dec 15, 2009
    I'll following these step and check the shown of carry out..
    ""You can also do a run with data acquisition recording the parameters for TO travel, potentiometer values, pump cycle signal and pressure. gear selected and paddle signal.

    between those it'll help point out the problem""

    Thanks man!!!
    brian
     
  4. rustybits

    rustybits F1 Rookie
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    #29 rustybits, Dec 15, 2009
    I agree with smg2, the sd3 really does not cope well with the self-learn procedure and can cause many problems on the earlier cars.
    It certainly sounds like a pressure issue on this car, what's the pump pressure doing as you cycle the gears? A weak pump or loose bleed screws can cause this.
     
  5. kzsport

    kzsport Karting

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    #30 kzsport, Dec 21, 2009
    This is data of error shift-learning by SD3
    WATER TEMPERATURE : 49.5
    gradiOIL TEMPERATURE : 42.8
    gradiI0 CLUTCH SOL. VALVE : 933 mA
    PIS - CLOSED CLUTCH : 5.2 mm
    CLUTCH SOL.VALVE LEAK. : 60.0 cc/min
    SOL. VALVE LEAK. OFF : 26.4 cc/min
    ACTUATOR CENTERING : 0.75
    CLUTCH WEAR : 18 %
    A/D CONVERTER SD2 : -1.00 Volt
    ENGAG. TRAVEL : 741
    SELECTION TRAVEL : 490
    ACCELERATOR : 0.0 %
    CLUTCH PRESSURE PLATE TRAVEL : 16.51 mm
    REF. CLUTCH PRESSURE PLATE STROKE : -2.70 mm
    CLOSED CLUTCH POS. : 16.51 mm
    NEW CLUTCH TRAVEL : 15.26 mm
    HYDRAULIC CIRCUIT PRESSURE : 48.00 bar
    BATTERY VOLTAGE : 12.1 V
    ENGINE RPM : 0 rpm
    GEARBOX PRIMARY REVOLUTIONS : 0 rpm
    CAR SPEED : 0 km/h
    LEVER STATUS : NEUTRAL
    BRAKE SWITCH STATUS : OFF
    DRIVER SIDE DOOR STATUS : OPEN
    START-UP INPUT STATUS : OFF
    AUTO SWITCH STATUS : OFF
    LOW GRIP SWITCH STATUS : OFF
    GEAR ENGAGED : SECOND
    PUMP RELAY TRIGG. : OFF
    CORR.ENGAGEMENT 1 SV : 0 mA
    CORR.ENGAGEMENT 2 SV : 0 mA
    CORR. CLUTCH SV : 0 mA
    SOL. VALVE CONTROL FOR 1-2-3 SEL. : OFF
    CLUTCH PRESSURE PLATE TRAVEL : 16.51 mm
    ENGAG. TRAVEL : 741
    SELECTION TRAVEL : 489
    S_S_INN_MIN NEUTRAL : 444
    S_S_INN_MIN 1 : 100
    S_S_INN_MIN 2 : 700
    S_S_INN_MIN 3 : 100
    S_S_INN_MIN 4 : 746
    S_S_INN_MIN 5 : 100
    S_S_INN_MIN 6 : 710
    S_S_INN_MIN REV. GEAR : 689
    ENGAGEMENT NEUTRAL : 509
    S_S_INN_MAX NEUTRAL : 574
    S_S_INN_MAX 1 : 332
    S_S_INN_MAX 2 : 950
    S_S_INN_MAX 3 : 286
    S_S_INN_MAX 4 : 950
    S_S_INN_MAX 5 : 279
    S_S_INN_MAX 6 : 950
    S_S_INN_MAX REV. GEAR : 950
    ENGAG. TRAVEL : 741
    S_SEL_MIN NEUTRAL : 547
    S_SEL_MIN 1 : 398
    S_SEL_MIN 2 : 397
    S_SEL_MIN 3 : 552
    S_SEL_MIN 4 : 542
    S_SEL_MIN 5 : 691
    S_SEL_MIN 6 : 678
    S_SEL_MIN REV. GEAR : 100
    SELECTION NEUTRAL : 610
    S_SEL_MAX NEUTRAL : 685
    S_SEL_MAX 1 : 553
    S_SEL_MAX 2 : 543
    S_SEL_MAX 3 : 692
    S_SEL_MAX 4 : 679
    S_SEL_MAX 5 : 950
    S_SEL_MAX 6 : 950
    S_SEL_MAX REV.GEAR : 385
    SELECTION TRAVEL : 489
    CLUTCH WEAR DEGREE : 15195
    Anyone advice of this???

    Thanks
    Brian
     
  6. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    #31 smg2, Dec 21, 2009
    OK,
    seems that you might have a problem with the centering of the engagement pawl, when you center the actuator it should be done with the unit off the trans axle. this will reset the min/max values for neutral.

    based upon the readout that is what is shown, however the values for gear selection/engagement are fixed in the TCU to the best of my knowledge since they all seem to stay consistent between the cars.

    if you notice 2nd gear engagement is on the low side of MIN, depending upon load and tolerance this could be to far out and cause the lack of engagement. I re-did the readout to make it a bi easier to understand.

    If you look at the actuator selection arm engagement pawl are they centered to each other?
    what are the values for 1st,3rd & 5th gear, I'm willing to bet that they will be past the MAX value for engagement, that would then show that the engagement pawl is not set right and would need to be re-set. Hill-engineering has a jig for doing that.



    ACTUATOR CENTERING: 0.75

    GEAR ENGAGED: SECOND
    ENGAGEMENT TRAVEL: 741 ( 16% OF MIN/MAX VALUE )
    SELECTION TRAVEL: 489 ( 62.5% OF MIN/MAX VALUE )

    NEUTRAL POSITION VALUE:
    ENGAGEMENT NEUTRAL: 509 ( 50% OF MIN/MAX VALUE )
    SELECTION NEUTRAL: 610 ( 45.6% OF MIN/MAX VALUE )

    ENGAGEMENT VALUE CHART:
    S_S_INN_MIN NEUTRAL : 444 - 574
    S_S_INN_MIN – MAX 1 : 100 - 332
    S_S_INN_MIN – MAX 2 : 700 - 950
    S_S_INN_MIN – MAX 3 : 100 - 286
    S_S_INN_MIN – MAX 4 : 746 - 950
    S_S_INN_MIN - MAX 5 : 100 - 279
    S_S_INN_MIN – MAX 6 : 710 - 950
    S_S_INN_MIN - MAX REV. GEAR : 689 – 950

    SELECTION VALUE CHART:
    S_SEL_MIN NEUTRAL : 547 - 685
    S_SEL_MIN 1 : 398 - 553
    S_SEL_MIN 2 : 397 - 543
    S_SEL_MIN 3 : 552 - 692
    S_SEL_MIN 4 : 542 - 679
    S_SEL_MIN 5 : 691 - 950
    S_SEL_MIN 6 : 678 - 950
    S_SEL_MIN REV. GEAR : 100 - 385
     
  7. Ricambi America

    Ricambi America F1 World Champ
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    #32 Ricambi America, Dec 21, 2009
  8. rustybits

    rustybits F1 Rookie
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    #33 rustybits, Dec 21, 2009
    a parameter check across the two planes of the gate will confirm suspicions regarding adjustment. Actuator wear is also a possibility, but is usually salvageable. When everything is up and running right, try to get something done about that high looking P.I.S value!
     
  9. kzsport

    kzsport Karting

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    #34 kzsport, Dec 22, 2009
  10. kzsport

    kzsport Karting

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    #35 kzsport, Dec 22, 2009
    Gear third parameter:

    WATER TEMPERATURE : 79.5 gradi
    OIL TEMPERATURE : 43.0 gradi
    I0 CLUTCH SOL. VALVE : 925 mA
    PIS - CLOSED CLUTCH : 5.2 mm
    CLUTCH SOL.VALVE LEAK. : 105.0 cc/min
    SOL. VALVE LEAK. OFF : 26.4 cc/min
    ACTUATOR CENTERING : 0.75
    CLUTCH WEAR : 17 %
    A/D CONVERTER SD2 : -1.00 Volt
    ENGAG. TRAVEL : 235
    SELECTION TRAVEL : 648
    ACCELERATOR : 0.0 %
    CLUTCH PRESSURE PLATE TRAVEL : 16.47 mm
    REF. CLUTCH PRESSURE PLATE STROKE : -2.70 mm
    CLOSED CLUTCH POS. : 16.47 mm
    NEW CLUTCH TRAVEL : 15.26 mm
    HYDRAULIC CIRCUIT PRESSURE : 48.00 bar
    BATTERY VOLTAGE : 12.5 V
    ENGINE RPM : 0 rpm
    GEARBOX PRIMARY REVOLUTIONS : 0 rpm
    CAR SPEED : 0 km/h
    LEVER STATUS : NEUTRAL
    BRAKE SWITCH STATUS : OFF
    DRIVER SIDE DOOR STATUS : OPEN
    START-UP INPUT STATUS : OFF
    AUTO SWITCH STATUS : OFF
    LOW GRIP SWITCH STATUS : OFF
    GEAR ENGAGED : THIRD
    PUMP RELAY TRIGG. : OFF
    CORR.ENGAGEMENT 1 SV : 0 mA
    CORR.ENGAGEMENT 2 SV : 0 mA
    CORR. CLUTCH SV : 0 mA
    SOL. VALVE CONTROL FOR 1-2-3 SEL. : OFF
    CLUTCH PRESSURE PLATE TRAVEL : 16.47 mm
    ENGAG. TRAVEL : 235
    SELECTION TRAVEL : 648
    S_S_INN_MIN NEUTRAL : 444
    S_S_INN_MIN 1 : 100
    S_S_INN_MIN 2 : 700
    S_S_INN_MIN 3 : 100
    S_S_INN_MIN 4 : 746
    S_S_INN_MIN 5 : 100
    S_S_INN_MIN 6 : 710
    S_S_INN_MIN REV. GEAR : 689
    ENGAGEMENT NEUTRAL : 509
    S_S_INN_MAX NEUTRAL : 574
    S_S_INN_MAX 1 : 332
    S_S_INN_MAX 2 : 950
    S_S_INN_MAX 3 : 286
    S_S_INN_MAX 4 : 950
    S_S_INN_MAX 5 : 279
    S_S_INN_MAX 6 : 950
    S_S_INN_MAX REV. GEAR : 950
    ENGAG. TRAVEL : 235
    S_SEL_MIN NEUTRAL : 547
    S_SEL_MIN 1 : 398
    S_SEL_MIN 2 : 397
    S_SEL_MIN 3 : 552
    S_SEL_MIN 4 : 542
    S_SEL_MIN 5 : 691
    S_SEL_MIN 6 : 678
    S_SEL_MIN REV. GEAR : 100
    SELECTION NEUTRAL : 610
    S_SEL_MAX NEUTRAL : 685
    S_SEL_MAX 1 : 553
    S_SEL_MAX 2 : 543
    S_SEL_MAX 3 : 692
    S_SEL_MAX 4 : 679
    S_SEL_MAX 5 : 950
    S_SEL_MAX 6 : 950
    S_SEL_MAX REV.GEAR : 385
    SELECTION TRAVEL : 648
    CLUTCH WEAR DEGREE : 14913

    Any advice???

    Thanks
    Brian
     
  11. kzsport

    kzsport Karting

    Feb 23, 2008
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    #36 kzsport, Dec 22, 2009
    what are the values for 1st,3rd & 5th gear, I'm willing to bet that they will be past the MAX value for engagement, that would then show that the engagement pawl is not set right and would need to be re-set. Hill-engineering has a jig for doing that.
    .......The dealership reset the gear lever position by tool that you mean I believe..but error of gear-shifting still with......Shift-learning not process too...
     
  12. kzsport

    kzsport Karting

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    #37 kzsport, Dec 23, 2009
    Today..I went to dealership for test the PIS and shift-learning ...
    The mechanican of service shown the EVF leaking by SD3 to me.
    The F1 pump working too much of each mins....F1 pump exercise once every 3-5 seconds

    Replacement the EVF only??? any advices???

    Thanks
    Brian
     
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