hey, thanks for the support...it is like a previous member said...the other half of the equation! A car is only worth what someone is willing to pay for. Well it is also worth what someone is willing to sell it for. The bottom line, it's paid for, I have the car and all the people who tried to educate me on the low value of the car are still looking...One guy said he had been looking for over a year, sorry but it doen't take one year to find a nice 355...well maybe if dreaming of the perfect car for 45k. I mean, I didn't even take me that long to find my wife, but again she's a brunette with brown hair...and I wanted a blonde with blue eyes.LOL. But when I saw her..little test drive around the block, no miles, had been keept indoors...That is for me..hey what i'm trying to say with humor is that I buy my cars because I love them...just like I love my wife. And I tought you bought a ferrari because you loved it and it was something personal. I've been lucky to owned 5 ferraris up to date and all of them were special to me including the 355. Again tks to all.
Amen to this! The 355 might be produced in large numbers but it is the last of the 'old' Ferraris built out of steel tube. Nobody can argue over how good it looks or sounds. Is this not what a ferrari is all about? It is only a few magazine articles away from greatness. I think in the coming years it will hold its value well.
hey, joao - market-smarket-- I've been casually looking for a well- sorted 355 for awhile now and once I move the 'vette out of the garage, I'll have one,but..., I'm certainly not looking at a contemporary ferrari as an 'investment. If you are ( or are becoming ) an F-car nutt, its a very personal and unique decision; clearly not a 'money maker' but possibly a real investment in the quality of your life. Soo.. keep the good ones for the future 'good' owners. We're still out there, just a little 'rattled' like everyone else, ' berto ( p.s. it's always darkest before the dawn )
I respectfully disagree. Value is only what a buyer is willing to pay. The buyer is all that matters. When it comes to 355s, there are more cars than buyers. There is something in common with all the high priced 355s on the market now....they haven't sold. It's a harsh reality but true. With that said, it is up to a seller to decide if the ownership is "worth" more than the cash in the bank. For most, I think they would rather have the car.
The truth is 50-50. In a seller's market, the lowest price at which a willing seller sells is the primary determinant; in a buyer's market, the highest price at which a willing buyer buys is the primary determinant. In either case it still takes a willing opposite; but by definition there are more likely to be "motivated" sellers in a buyer's market, and more likely to be "motivated" buyers in a seller's market. We're very much in a buyer's market right now, we were in a seller's market previously - true of both real estate and Ferraris.
I think you are right. However, since it is most certainly a buyer's market, the 50/50 number is probably closer to 90/10 with favor being on the buyer side. There are LOTS of cars that just aren't selling.
buyers market = less buyers and more sellers = delta cars not selling ........... thankfully ............. some owners do not need to sell their cars ........... those cars are usually in better condition ......
I will agree with both of you, but there IS NOT a lot of gts models out there...so does the law of supply applies...maybe not anymore...and I'm ok with that, I will just keep it if that's case. Sorry but at around 50k , I think I would be better off parting the thing out. I still believe 69k is not a crazy price...but a fair price.
69k is not crazy BUT high(a little) ...so since you will be stuck with it, at least it a GREAT model to be stuck with
50/50 didn't refer to the % of buyers/sellers, but to the the principle of how a market sets prices, each closed transaction always has a "willing" buyer and "willing" seller. "Willing" in some cases being defined only by their willingness to hold their nose and sign the transfer papers. The pool of potential buyers and sellers may well have lopsided proportions.
I'm not an economist, so what you are saying again is certainly true by definition, but Fcars from what I have seen don't really fall into that mold completely... Support again what Goth says: thankfully ............. some owners do not need to sell their cars ........... those cars are usually in better condition ...... Therefore, the laws of supply and demand are only applicable for the cars that are on the market, and the many of us with "very nice" cars wouldn't sell them in a market such as this, so what you are seeing in the "market" is skewed - not a true free market for these cars so all rules don't apply. As I told Desorno, you believe in the market supply and demand until you own a nice one, then you realize that you can actually affect that model by holding onto your car in a market like this, which inherently falsifies the standard rules that normally apply to supply and demand. In other words, even if I wanted to sell my car to move to another model (which I don't) I wouldn't sell in a market like this, so at least one very high quality Fcar would sit in a garage (as the original poster is doing as well) before I would sell it for less than it is actually "worth". You dig? LOL MB
I hate to be pedantic, but there seems to be some confusion about "supply and demand". The laws of supply and demand are NOT different for F-cars or this market than at any other time. Withholding a car from the market is not a falsification of the rules that normally apply. It is exactly those actions that make up the rules that determine supply, demand and market price. There are always buyers and sellers willing/unwilling to transact at different prices. At any given moment there are an increasing number of sellers willing to sell at higher prices, for example: 0 sellers @ $20K 1 seller at $30K 5 at $40K 20 at $50K 50 @ $60K 100 @ $70K ... all the cars ever built at $1M At any given moment there are an increasing number of buyers willing to buy at lower prices, for example: 0 buyers @ $1M ... 1 @ $100K 5 @ $70K 10 @ $60K 20 @ $50K 40 @ $40K 100 @ $30K ... all the cars available at $1K With this table, there will be as many interested buyers as sellers at $50K and 20 cars will transact. There would be buyers for 20 more cars at $40K, but all the sellers (5) willing to sell their cars as low as $40K, actually sold them at $50K and there are no more sellers left to satisfy the buyers at the $40K price. The opposite holds true for all the buyers (10) willing to buy at $60K, they actually bought their cars at $50K (along with the buyers only willing to bid up to $50K) and that depleted the small pool of buyers willing to buy up to $60K. When you say that you choose to withhold your car at $50K and are looking for $60K, you just determined where you are on the Supply/Demand curves; the part that isn't transacting. What happened in this market is that the Supply curve hasn't changed much, but the Demand curve has changed dramatically. The number of people willing to buy at each price point has dropped, causing the intersection of the Supply and Demand curves to drop to a lower market clearing price (and causing the number of transactions to decline). Why did the number of buyers drop? At least two reasons, possibly more, those being lack of means and changed expectations. You can't be a buyer if you don't have means (cash/credit). Cash and credit have been depleted due to lack of loans, higher interest rate for loans, hoarding of cash, no home equity, etc. The second, expectations, such as for losing your job or prices being lower in two months, will reduce the interest in buying at each price level. Just look at the number of people on the pricing threads advising "wait, 2-3 months, it'll be $10K cheaper". Throw the two together and you have a price decline spiral. This is exactly what's happening in equities and housing too. There is nothing special about the F-car market. I think it's important to clarify these things, because it was partly confusion about these concepts that led to the belief that the housing market would always rise or that F-cars didn't depreciate. What will break the spiral is increasing the number of people who have means, which will eventually lead to stabilization of prices, followed by elimination of extraordinary price decline expectations, etc.
dude you're f'in crazy to sell a GTS right now, unless you're really strapped. Don't let her go for less than $70K, you'll probably regret it.
That's exactly where I'm at. Less than 69k with the service makes no sense. I don't believe dealers askink 70k+ for clean 355's will sell them for 50k. Why would they ask that kind of money in the first place if they know the car is worth only 50k. A few low sales here and there does not set new standards, or what dealers pay for them wholesale. If someone wants to pay wholesale, then get in the car business and open a dealership, they will find out really quick that will not be selling 355's for 50k...because that will mean that clean 355's are trading at about 35k or less, i don't think we are there yet. I don't know what people are really paying at this time for gts's...anybody out there purchased one lately with about 15k...not interested in knowing what spyder's are going for, 90% of 355's for sale are spyder's...lets keep it at gts's only.
I just looked at one for $48k and it had paint work, alignment issues before completing the disection.lol Granted a well sorted F355 holds more in value, but what buyers consider is for $69k that is hovering just below a Modona and they are thinking thats more reliable for a little but more money. For someone who wants nothing but an F355 they will pay but in tough times and its all about timing they will either hold out for a Modena or try to find a bargain F355. IMO
Agreed. Thats really the bottom line. Unles you really need the money, now is absolutely not the time to be selling.
SPOT ON with every point in my book. Logic and Common Sense....are they words of a past era? I had someone try to explain to me how the bottom had dropped out on this or that model the other day. My only reply was to ask what his house is worth now compared to two years ago. Fix it, hold it and enjoy it....
Y, like I said, I don't disagree with the laws of supply and demand, I just think you won't find a very good 348 for $30k - some people think they will. I wish them luck. Indeed, the prices have dropped, but ONLY on cars that are Pieces of ****. MB
Let's define a "POS" ... If it need a major plus the seat or seats redone and stickies redone.. I dont think it falls into that category ....
OK, lets. This is taken from a guy who found a 456 in the 456 thread area of Fchat and had a PPI done on it - he thought it looked like a "good deal" at the asking price. You tell me. BODY • All window outer trim moldings have been sanded and painted, rear molding has numerous chips and scratches through out, rear side windows moldings are dry rotted and feel rough. • It appears to me that the whole car may have been painted, at very least the left side was painted. • Moisture inside back window at third brake light. • Fuel filler door did not open on its own, rubber protector flap is dry cracked and hard, was jamming fuel door hinge and one rubber bumper is broken and was laying at bottom. • Poor blend at left rear corner of roof, left rear quarter panel shows evidence of previous bodywork and was repainted. • Rear bumper has been repaired and repainted; poor blend at left side of bumper, suspect quick scratch repair. {the owner admits he backed the car into a pole, but swears no serious damage} • Rear bumper lower valance is cracked on both corners and paint is cracked underneath. • Cement rocks inside rear bumper grille. • Trunk lid is too high where it meets left rear quarter panel, possible adjustment. • Paint blistering inside trunk lid at skin fold line. • Scratches around Prancing Horse on truck lid. • Front headlight doors do not align to hood correctly and hood needs to be adjusted, did not see evidence of large accident. • Left rear side marker does not illuminate, and found electrical socket broken and hanging. • Left headlight motor is out of adjustment, does not move evenly with right side. • Headlight and bumper hardware is rusty, radiator-mounting bracket is twisted and bent and bumper grille is missing hardware. • Front bumper is severely chipped and has German plate screwed into bumper. • Front bumper lower valance is scraped. • Front bumper is cracked, "Sunoco" sticker attempting to cover crack, can only be seen with hood open. • Front turn signal lens have overspray on them and left front has small crack. • Ding on driver's door. • Several dings on passenger door, door edge paint is cracked and rusty. • Several little scratches on left rear quarter panel and minor dings. • Driver's door check makes noise when door is opened and closed. ________________________________________ INTERIOR • Passenger air bag leather is slightly shrunk, lid is slightly deformed (have seen a lot worst). • Dash top leather is a bit dry, did not see any cracks or shrinking at this time. • All black plastic is sticky and tacky, very common problem with all Ferraris, to correct problem I would recommend replacing all buttons and vessels. • Climate control panel is bubbling, also common problem. • Radio is not original, someone has taken an aftermarket radio and installed radio chassis in glove box and face in console and ran ribbon cable from chassis to face plate, radio was not designed to function this way but it is working, also has remote control.m {owner says he will provide original stereo} • Has some sort of navigation, unit is coming on could not get NAV to display streets, but could be my fault, I 'm not familiar with system, unit is facing straight up and is very difficult and distracting to see screen. • Plastic steering column coverings are tacky and scratched around ignition switch. • In car temperature sensor grille is broken and it appears as a hole in dash just ahead of ignition switch. • Several chips and scratches on dash top on left side from sticker scraper. • Small cut on dash gage pod on left side. • In dash speaker grilles cloth shrunk, can be seen through grille. • Driver’s door triangular rubber weather strip at rear of door is slightly cut. • Both door panels are loose at rear of doors, suspect broken panel clips and trim at rear of both door panels is unglued. • Rubber weather strip on both door windows are being caught on windows as they go up. {the owner says this is on purpose to create a seal} • Driver’s seat rails are rusty. • Passenger seat does not move forward when seat back is folded forward. • Both lower kick panel covers are broken at mounting tabs. • Shifter knob is not original and shifter interlock as been disabled. • No owners’ manual or any other books found in car, there is a Ferrari car cover bag in trunk but no car cover, only one key and remote with car. TEST DRIVE • Air bag light is on, codes found for: 1. Battery Voltage Fault, possible weak battery on start up. 2. Lamp Circuit Fault, possible unplugged Gauge cluster and key turned on. • Check Engine Light is on, codes found for: 1. P1445 Manufacture Controlled Auxiliary Emissions Control. {believed to be O2 sensor, but who knows that is what the current owner says} 2. P1625 Manufacture Controlled Computer Output Circuit. • Slight drift to right, recommend wheel alignment. • Slight vibration at about 50 MPH, possible wheel balancing. • Transmission shifts well. • Engine runs well, engine temperatures and pressures are normal. • Horn is weak, suspect failing air compressor. • Right side turn signal indicator does not flash when turn signal is turned on and it stays dim when ignition is on, suspect electrical fault. UNDER CARRIAGE • Underbelly pan is severely bottomed out, it is worn through at lower radiator hose connection, there are several scrapes on radiator but it is not worn through at this time. • Accessory belt for alternator and a/c compressor is not installed correctly; grove was missed on crank pulley. • Power steering belt is cracked, recommend replacing both accessory belts. • Timing belts appear to have been replaced but they look like they have been in car for a while. When was service done? {Major service done 1.5 yrs ago} • Spark plugs are showing very little wear. • Power steering hose from reservoir to pump is very wet, suspect leak at reservoir connection. • Brake cooling hoses for both wheels are torn. • Brake calipers are painted yellow, they should be black, and inside of brake calipers are not painted. • Center section of exhaust has been removed and pipes welded in place, rear connections are loose, exhaust pipe used is not stainless steel pipe. • Rear mufflers have been replaced with stainless steel exhaust, one exhaust hanger on right muffler is broken, mufflers are dual sound, there are flaps in tail pipes that are controlled by switch mounted under left side of dash, vacuum solenoid was mount on right rear of car with vacuum hose running all the way to rear of car from engine bay, system is working at this time. • Left rear shock is leaking and should be replaced. {I was told this part would cost about $400} • Right rear axle seal is leaking. • Transmission under tray is missing. • Right rear air intake funnel to transmission cooler is missing. • Alternator appears to have been rebuilt, new paint job. {yes it was, it is 1 yr old} EVERYONE IS TELLING HIM TO RUN AWAY, RUN AWAY FAST. But then my good ferrari friends, he asks the ultimate "I don't care about the problems, this is a supply and demand market favoring buyers" question - and I quote, "At what price point would this be a good deal? $50,000, $45,000? The inspector did tell me the engine seemed like it was in good shape". Hey, a 456 for 45k??? Sounds like a hell of a deal..............................for an idiot. But the prices are dropping, and I can get a 456 for 45k!!! Sure you can, go right ahead, and good luck with that one.
The 456 thread referenced is a great example of a couple of points.... 1) There is no cheap Ferrari. Of course, "cheap" is in relation to all the others on the market. 2) A seller's perception of value is worthless. The 456 seller is/was crazy in his asking price with the long list of PPI issues. No matter how much the seller thinks his car is worth, it wil never sell until he gets it down to a price that reflects both the condition and the market.
