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Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by TeamF1Jr, Aug 16, 2017.
sounds like he read my thread about missing pininfarina !
I personally don't believe the guys who love the vintage cars will ever be seduced to buy a new Ferrari. I think they have a completely different mindset, and I don't think the romance of the vintage cars can ever be captured in a new car. The Enzo era cars will always be more desirable, even though aging boomers are unloading them and prices may see a 50% or more correction in the not too distant future. No matter - these cars transcend generational change in my opinion.
Some of you classic car guys might go for a car that is really pretty looking and a little bit retro. My mind says it should be smaller, like the older cars. 2400mm wheelbase and under 3000lbs, the lighter the better. It could have a compact V6, V8, V12 or even a small flat 12. Normally aspirated would sound a lot better than a turbo, but you could get away with a supercharger with out hurting the exhaust note. Either front or rear engine, but a convertible would be better with a front engine ?? Manual gearbox standard with paddles as an option ?? Call it a Dino ??
Depends what vintage cars and owners SM is talking about.
When talking about 1M+ vintage Ferraris, buyers mostly buy them to compete at concourse, go through the process of renovating them, they buy the racing pedigree of the vehicle, an access to the emotions they experienced when watching such vehicles race back in the days, and an investment (which also explains why all those cars rotate at concourse, to fuel the value).
> You can't capture that in a fresh from factory brand new Ferrari
If we are now talking about the sub 1M$ cars, you get a broad range of vehicles such as the Daytona, BBi, TRs, .... Totally different profile of buyers.
Here too they purchase the access to your child's dreams now they can afford it, or more of an "entry classic car with lots of character" (for TRs, Dinos, BB...). For most of them, you here also access a more regular driving experience.
> You can capture the driving experience again (manual, lighter, more simple, less powerful, more beautiful - now how to justify the 400k compared to rest of the lineup), but for most of those clients, such a modern expression of a classic craving, no matter how appealing, is unlikely to translate into a purchase as they won't have the 400k+ necessary to spend on a "mass produced so fast depreciating new vintage inspired V6-8-12 Ferrari".
I would much rather spend 400k in a mass produced brand new 250 SWB stylized V12 with 350hp than a Lusso, but I today have no choice, so I buy what is available, and for them to launch such model would likely not add much sales to their P&L.
The only manner for such program to work would be to launch a 500 car limited edition, simple and inspired by what they used to do in the 60s, priced at 2M, reserved to the 1M$+ Vintage Ferrari owners.
One more time, a car real enthousiasts would love to own, but will never own. Which at some point gets really frustrating.
Ferrari needs a "Singer Ferrari" from Ferrari.
Oh I disagree completely.
Today's cars all seems like Hondas at normal street speeds. No personality, too much reliance on "aero" to make cars go over 200, and too much software trickery.
You don't have to go 200 mph to have fun with a car. That's the point these "super car" makers have forgotten.
You can bring driving passion back into today's machines. You just need to want to.
Right on, bro.
Disagree. No new manufacturer is crazy enough to update an older design. Completely recreate one, like Jaguar did with old E-Types, OK, but not take an old one and make it modern. It makes no sense. Singer Porsches aren't selling new Porsches. On the contrary in fact.
The alfa 8c is kind of what Marchionne is talking about imo. I'd personally prefer Ferrari to be the pinnacle of performance and technology while Maserati/Alfa come up with retro, simpler designs down the line
You are correct and I was unclear.
I was more talking about the experience if driving than the actual "refreshing of an existing car".
Hey, the guy is finally talking our language. For now let's be optimistic. This is good news. Be happy!
So does this mean they're going to crawl back to Pininfarina, or will these megical, beautiful, aesthetically-pleasing designs some come from Ferrari's in-house designing team (big sigh)?
His goal to bring vintage buyers back into the fold may be misplaced, but I heartily embrace his aims. The cars are simply too fast for the road so why continue to push down that crowded space rather than embrace the aesthetics, something no other competitor has the DNA to do.
Hate to break the news to everyone, but modern Ferrari owners don't track their cars, challenge series the exception. Go to any Ferrari club track event, even given the fact that Ferrari is selling more cars per year than any time in its history, you can count on one hand how many 488s and 458s street cars are doing track time. California owners not likely and Forget about an owner in an F12 turning a wheel in anger on a track. LaFerrari, sorry the days of owners like a Benny Caiola taking the latest Ferrari super car out are long gone.
Want further proof, FCA now allows non-Ferraris track time during their annual meets to help cover the track rental cost, something that was unthinkable 10 years ago.
whats the point of going after this customer base when they are already selling every car they can make ? unless they plan on bumping past the 10k cars per year mark this is absolutely meaningless
but i do agree in spirit. Ferraris havent been beautiful in a long time. sure some are 'cool' but that can be said for lots of cars.
Ferraris used to be the most beautiful on the road
Pre-IPO, Ferrari tried to make one less car than demand.
Post-IPO, screw it. We'll make as many as we can. The supply of greater fools is endless.
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F12berlinetta? I think thats beautiful. 550 Maranello is beautiful. 458 Italia is beautiful. At least I think so.
Most beautiful= more than any other. I seem to remember a fellow from Maranello saying a particular Jag was the most beautiful car he ever saw....
Ferrari is a racing company. Their cars are beautiful, but the key thing I think is the core of racing technology. Anyway, thats just my opinion.
They do want to bump well past the 10k mark But will never admit it publicly.At the same
time they don't want to erode demand for their current series of cars.How does one do that ?
By creating new segments and bringing other customers into the fold. As well as giving
their current customers to park a second or third Ferrari in their garage - IMO
Ill debate F12, I think a vette is far nicer stylisticaly if were going down that road. Yeah the 550 is nice and the 458 stunning, too bad about the 488 then.
Race cars and street cars diverged a long time ago, at least for many race series. Putting ersatz F1 into a street car may wow and sell to those who dont really drive but it does not enhance the road experience.
Whats needed is beuty and a raw viceral drivign experience. That means light weight no ps preferably stick. Ie the F40 F50 formumla.
Its really a different line of cars we are talking about, call it the classic line. Ferrari can and shold keep bulding their current range, its where their volume buyers lurk. Most ferrari buyer cant really drive, are nto buying the cars for sunday romps, and want ease of use and comfort.
In a way that elaves ferrari free to make the mroe raw viceral machine for those who care, and to make the car in sufficient numbers that its purchasebale by enthusiasts, not only "collectors" On paper the raw car will probably be "slower" than the current techno wonders, so only those who appreciate them will buy.
I imagine a 458 body, really stripped of frippery, no fake Cf or deviated stichig to drive up prices, idealy a NA V12 or the TT V8, no ps maybe a stick. Your average ferrari poseur wouldnt want such a car, the rest of us would.
Or take the 4c tub, get pinin to do a design like the Glickenhous p3/4 put the alfa ttv6 mtor in(its a ferrari v8 sans 2 cyls) and offer stick option. theres your classic ferrari drive experince. Basicaly the modern F40 for under 200k produced in enough numbers that non collectors can buy it. Wow maybe people will track ferraris again too..
Tech brings reliability, great chassis dynamics, possibly light weight, great power, other tech blands the drive experince.
Porche is smart, they make cars with both types of tech for both customer bases, they also make suvs to pay the bills. Ferrari is or has been arrogant, they make cars with gee whiz tech for one customer base, and the buying experince for sub billionaires will turn off anyone with self respect.
Good points! I think Ferrari has always been about a dream and that continues.
I would debate Porsche a bit though- I think the disclaimer of this is just my opinion. I respect their cars immensely, but I think they've turned the 911 into a 3 series- whatever variant you want they will build, which for me at least, ruins the whole notion of the 911 as a simple machine. And then they make a SUV and sedan, but twist and contort them to look as most as possible as a 911....
And I think that is the point I am coming to- everyone of us has what we think a Porsche, or more to the point, a Ferrari, should be. But that is just our own opinion. My experience is most of our opinions are changing and evolving, but its not in an vacuum because the world keeps changing as well.
I see Ferrari as a racing company first and foremost, the concern with the fastest way to win a race. From that, I understand the technological transfer of paddles and other tech. And yes, since the divergence between road and race cars happened a long time ago, these days its about giving a road car driver that sense of a race car, rather than the actual race car. That means more innovative solutions. As I see it, everything Ferrari does in their road cars from a technological perspective is towards this end. I think they have been spectacularly successful. Of course, the market place is expecting to have that race car experience but also in a somewhat useful and comfortable package. I think its actually quite remarkable what Ferrari has consistently delivered. And they are currently delivering with the current line up.
Sure they have deviated stitching, but does that really add weight? The electric comfort seats do. But where do you draw the line on what should be included or not? I suppose you could say they should adopt a Lotus mindset to light weight- but that would leave them with Lotus success. We could look to the aforementioned Porsche, but they offer all these things and even more- you can get stickers for your 911 so everyone knows its a "GT3RS4.0" etc.
In the end I think there will always be certain things that will strike someone as "silly" or nonsense- see the aforementioned Porsche stickers of an example of something I see as absurd. Yet, if someone loves their GT3 and the stickers heighten that enjoyment, then who am I to criticize?
The only thing I know for sure is if you love cars, we are living in a golden age.
PS- IMHO the F12 has nothing to do with Corvette. But if you see it and don't like the F12, then thats fine by me. I think the F12b is the best modern Ferrari- however, I have not yet driven the 812 nor spent much time with it in person.
We can only hope the 812 and Portofino are the end of the line in the "aero defines style" age we live in today.
I'll start at the end on the f12 and 812. I think the "look" they are going for here is better pulled off by the current vette. I did think the TDF had a lot going for it when you looked at the details, the way all those vents wings and bits flowed the air, real eye candy details. But then many of these details were add on cf bits. To me its like an 80's trans Am with add on wings and such, except here its in cf not plastic and more clever. But I like trans ams.
yes poche has turned the 911 into a 3 series flavor you like type car, they make what 20k 991s per year. But thats the genius. 90% of buyers want an ersatz sports car, thats really A luxury gt with brand cachet. Off the same 911 platform at porche you can still also get a Gts or a Gt3 so they still cater to the more focussed sprotscar buyer too.
Personaly I dotn see the 458 or 488 as race car type experience. These really are Gt cars that can turn good numbers when pushed on track, not that they ever go there. Whats lost is the viceral feel and experience that seperates a sportscar from say an amg e class on road. Below 9/10ths in a modern ferrari you might as well be in a lexus coupe. Yes that makes them useable for a large portion of people, and its expanded the sales bandwith. But at porche on a lower or less expesive level off one platform they are covering the full bandwidth. And porche was never at ferrairs cachet level, they were always more of mass producer, but thye have the bandwidth formula down. After abandonign the core enthisaist, they came back witht he 911R the Gt4 and now the Gt3 in stick and paddle. So Imagine ferrari playing the same game at 10k or 12 units by offering the equivalent of a Gts Gt4 and Gt3 not as collectors cars but as drivers cars..
I am not for a second arguing that ferrari should become lotus. Rather they should keep their current product line which has good volume, great appeal to the many and makes great profits from plastic sheilds and devaited stiching etc. Plus they should offer a purist line, much as porche does with the gt4 and Gt3. At least if ferrari/sergio is serious about recapturing enthusiast buyers or the types who like the more "classic" products. What many of us like about the classic products is their virtues, cohesive latin design, the driving experience, the drama, the motor. not necessarily their vices which modern tech can eradicate.
Personaly I always loved a 288, even when people said they would never be worth much because they looked like a common 308. great design is great design. I think the LAf looks great to. But if you offered me the keys to a 288 or Laf for the day its a no brainer which one I would take. Nor do I think on road you woud go any faster in one than the other, and the 288/f40 is going to be more fun on track for sure.
yes road and race cars diverge, but there are many classes of race cars. maybe its pity then ferraris only take their inspiration these days from hyper tech F1.
Race cars have also diverged, and today, the core enthusiast excercises their car on sunday on road at what 7/10ths and on track at de events, not races.
There is a long line of ferraris imo starting with the 250 swb a car that could be driven on road for fun, to, on, and from the track, through the F50.The 288 cost what 86k and was so raw ferrari didnt think they could sell 200, 260 or so later people were still clamoring. Lets not forget they made sometign like 1700 f40s because they were not restricting them to collectors and playing market games and that is an extremly raw car. After that well ferrari figured sell less charge more. Then came the enzo and its like whats the point.
Even Lotus manages to crank out 2k raw cars per year. Yes there is a market out there for a very raw very fast very viceral car, that you have to know how to drive to be able to pilot, but which rewards skilled hands in spades. Its the type of car ferrari used to make on occasion too and would do well to produce now, both financialy and in terms of brand authenticity. Instead we get the occasional special for billionaires on wait lists, to be put in a garges as collectables.
To me the f50 stylisticaly challenged as it is has all the right ingredients. Its really a scaled up period f1 car for the road, from a time when F1 cars could still be driven or related to by mere mortals. The Mclaren f1 is much the same inspiration too. Stiff CF tub, V12 motor, no power asistance, great suspension dynamics modern reliable and well built. Today a Cf tub is available on 75k alfa, too bad it has a very pedetrian motor and poorly resolved suspension. But think what ferrari could do with that formula today. Whats the buisness case, well its brand authenticity, amnd if others can turn a profit using off the shelf bits and a cf tub at less than 3k units so can ferrari.
I have two loti. I love the way they drive, evrthing, seerign brakes suspesion, power all in harmony working as it should., the car itself talking directly to you.. I love the way they run on track. For the way they drive I am prepared to look past the poor build, the ratlles and squaks the pedestrian motors because simply nothing else short of a Gt3 drives like this and even thats not quite there..A ferrari version with great motor, latin styling, more perfomance, whats not to love. To certain extent while my BBi has far lower performance than the lotiu, its reactiosn and feedback is similar, but its got a great motor.
So bring on the 4c tub with the TTv6 stick and manual rack inpired by a p4 or even a 458.
Sadly the when sergio talks of bringing back a classic ferrari its the portofino he has in mind. Not that i have anythign against the protofino, in the 50s and 60s ferrari made plenty of Gt cars to keep the lights on.
What we need also is some cars inspired by the otehr line they used to make, real sportscars...
Good discussion. I would just stop the line of cars that are really racing cars for the road with the 275GTB/4.