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Serious Vinyl

Discussion in 'Other Off Topic Forum' started by whart, Jun 3, 2006.

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  1. whart

    whart F1 Veteran
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    #1 whart, Jun 3, 2006
    So, just to be a wanker, I posted a pic of the front end of my hi-fi system in the 'What are you Listening To' Thread and Wax (how ironic) and a few others asked about it. Even if you don't give a folk about hi-fi, the equipment aspect might interest you.
    The table is made in Slovenia by Franc Kuzma, who makes a range of turntables from quite modest to overkill. What's fascinating is that each model utilizes a different design theory and accomplishes its goals well within its price point.
    (His modestly priced table is itself a brilliant piece of design and aesthetic engineering as well).

    The XL, shown below, is currently the top of the Kuzma range and is a so-called "high mass" design. It depends upon sheer mass to maintain very steady drive characteristics and acoustic 'deadness.' The table weighs approximately 177 lbs without the dedicated stand- which needs to be micro-adjustable to accomodate the arm, discussed below.
    The arm is one of a fairly small group of arm designs in the
    airbearing/linear tracking category- the theoretical advantages are obvious- no pivot point- the arm carriage tracks in line with the grooves, but the hitch, of course, is that it must be relatively low mass- you don't want to be 'transporting' a massive carriage across the record surface, which you would hear, and which would affect the sound and cartridge behavior- and the arm tube/apparatus must move without friction. It is set up as a very high grade air bearing, and is charged by a separate air compressor which is located in a separate room off the listening area, delivering about 80 psi of pressure into the air bearing on the arm.
    I'll post some pics of the arm as well as the TT.
    The sonic attributes are- quiet (in the sense that you do not know that it is a record playing- more like a master tape insofar as 'orbital' noise is concerned) and dead-on stability; massive foundation and shape to the bass- most folks never get to hear bass reproduced properly- it has tone, color, and nuance that is usually robbed from big stereo and HT theatre set-ups that play loud, and perhaps deeply, but without tonality- and a sense of palpability to instruments in space that is best described by the difference between a two-dimensional rendering, and a three dimensional object, with heft, shape and dimension.
    Enough!
     
  2. whart

    whart F1 Veteran
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    #2 whart, Jun 3, 2006
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  3. fanatic1

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    #3 fanatic1, Jun 3, 2006
    Wow,
    That is just wild! I don't know the first thing about records, but that is impressive to look at. I wish I could hear it. I've heard many times that a record on the best equipment is the most authentic sound you'll ever hear, I've just never witnessed it.
     
  4. REMIX

    REMIX Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #4 REMIX, Jun 3, 2006
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  5. David_S

    David_S F1 World Champ
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    #5 David_S, Jun 3, 2006
    Must have great sound with that Manley Steelhead up front too! What speakers are you using?
     
  6. quartermaster

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    #6 quartermaster, Jun 3, 2006
    Holy cow--that's beautiful (including the antique table!).
    Those look like tubes (KT66?) on the power amps--but seem too 'exposed'...
     

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  7. whart

    whart F1 Veteran
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    #7 whart, Jun 3, 2006
    Remix- yep, vinyl is the ticket. I am constantly rediscovering how good some records -which I had previously rejected as too bright or bass-shy- sound when the system improves.

    David S- I tried the Steelhead straight up, without a line stage, and it was pretty impressive through the MC inputs, given the ease of adjustability of the unit. But, I finally added a line stage- Lamm L2- and now use the Steelhead just as a phono preamp, through the MM input. I am a longtime electrotatic owner (Quad ESLs, Crosby Quads) who, after a 10 year hiatus, came back and resumed with a modern set of horns- Avantgarde Duos.

    Quartermaster- you are close- they are KT-88s. The amps are a very novel design by a Brazilian; they emulate the behavior of flea-powered amps, but have more power and use fairly common tubes. The interesting part of the design is the 'active' adjustment of one side of each amp against the other- to create a more unified relationship with the speaker/cable characteristics. You can read de Lima's white papers @ his site- Audiopax.
     
  8. wax

    wax Five Time F1 World Champ
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    #8 wax, Jun 3, 2006
    My folks bought 2 homes on adjoining lots in 1968.

    IIRC, initially, the mortgage was about equal to what this turntable and airline tonearm costs now.

    William, I am so glad you capture the groove with your sound investment.
     
  9. David_S

    David_S F1 World Champ
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    #9 David_S, Jun 3, 2006
    Sure wish you were local - I'd love to hear your system. I honestly WANT to like horns, but have not yet encountered them in a system where they quite worked for me to this point. Many seem to like the CAR T1 or T3, but I couldn't live with either. Haven't had the pleasure of Avantgardes, but have been VERY intrigued. Currently switching between Soundlab Pristine IIs, Apogee Stages, and Gallo Nucleus Ref 3s. Was about to ditch the Gallos after only a brief listen, but after quite a bit of time reproducing helicopter takeoffs at near live volumes under blankets, they really do appear to be pretty special :)

    One of these days, I DO need to get a vinyl rig (though perhaps something a bit more pedestrian such as a VPI with ET arm or maybe a Sota with SME). SACD is certainly more tolerable than CDs, but it is still a few notches under a good turntable :)
     
  10. whart

    whart F1 Veteran
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    #10 whart, Jun 3, 2006
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    David- Before I bought the XL, i had Franc's Stabi Ref for a couple months, with a Triplanar VII. Brilliant combination for the money. The Stabi Ref is a true big league table, can be set up easily and isolates without alot of trouble, and can be fitted with tonearms easily, using precut mounting plates. The quality of that table is absolutely superb, and the level of performance it renders is well beyond the more esoteric, more expensive tables popular right now. It is a proven design, and one you could live with forever. I also think the Triplanar is, right out of the box, perhaps the best conventional arm, although I have not heard some of the more esoteric pivoted arms like the Schroeder or the Da Vinzi. I would urge that whatever arm you get, it have high quality wire, without a termination box, run straight thru to the phono inputs; those boxes without a doubt diminish sonic quality, and are totally unnecessary.
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  11. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

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    #11 enjoythemusic, Jun 5, 2006
    Whart,

    NICE SETUP! Most impressive. Love your wall of vinyl :)

    Enjoy the Music,

    Steven

    www.EnjoyTheMusic.com
     
  12. whart

    whart F1 Veteran
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    #12 whart, Jun 5, 2006
    Steve- that's Remix's wall. I've got quite a few piles myself, but not all on one wall. Thanks, and thanks for your help in getting me back into this madness.
     
  13. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

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    #13 enjoythemusic, Jun 5, 2006
    ALWAYS glad to help... but must admit that madness is when:

    You have three turntables/arms and eagerly await the fourth that JUST arrived at your door.

    You now only look for phonostages that can handle multiple MM/MC inputs.

    One of your MC cartridges cost more than TWO major services of a 308QV... and all cartridges add up to simply buying a 'new to you' 308. Selling cartridges and arms/turntables = alomost the cost of a nice 355.

    You have so much vinyl that they must be placed by one of your home's load-bearing walls, lest they fall through the floor.

    When you calculate the number of vinyl albums on your home, the music time each one contains on average, and your remaining lifespan here on Earth, you realize you'll never be able to hear each album once through in your lifetime.

    You have calculated the resale value of your vinyl as part of your retirement plan.

    Because they vary, you find that you own 8 different versions of Pink Floyd 'Dark Side Of The Moon,' lest you miss something within the original UK, USA, Holland, Japanese, UHQR, MoFi versions... or the German or UK QUAD pressings. You also buy the picture disc for no apparent reason other than it 'looks cool on the wall.'

    ..and i am avoid the whole record cleaning solutions and ways to apply them...

    Enjoy the Music (DSOTM, original UK pressing if you must know),

    Steven

    "I've been mad for f--king years, absolutely years, been over the edge for yonks, been working me buns off for bands..."

    "I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us have... very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."

    (Man laughing)

    Breathe, breathe in the air
    Don't be afraid to care
    Leave, but don't leave me
    Look around
    Choose your own ground

    Long you live and high you fly
    And smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry
    And all you touch and all you see
    Is all your life will ever be..."
     
  14. racespecferrari

    racespecferrari F1 Veteran

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    #14 racespecferrari, Jun 5, 2006
    Wow, That is the best Hifi setup I have ever seen, I thought my Gyro Se looked good but that is amazing
     
  15. Horsefly

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    #15 Horsefly, Jun 5, 2006
    But would not the absolute vinyl audio connoisseur utilize such a system to play a vinyl record ONE time as it is dubbed across to a DVD, thereby insuring minimal damage or scratches to a rare vinyl record, and creating a perfect digital copy which can then be copied or manipulated any number of times with zero degradation to the original?
     
  16. wax

    wax Five Time F1 World Champ
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    #16 wax, Jun 5, 2006
    No, 'cause digital ain't analog.
    __

    Pre-CD, or, shall we say, BCD, I did that with LP > Cassette transfer.
     
  17. whart

    whart F1 Veteran
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    #17 whart, Jun 5, 2006
    Arlie- the short answer is that the process of converting the signal to digital, and the limits of consumer digital playback, do much to remove the life from the sound. Yes, vinyl records are more vulnerable to scratches, dirt and surface crap, but the soul of the music seems to shine through in a way that consistently defies everything that you'd be led to believe about technological improvement. I'm not necessarily speaking about 'special' records, either- most of the audiophile records are boring crap, and frankly, not all of those even sound very good.
    What is truly amazing is that you can throw something on the turntable that was manufactured in the 50's or 60's- we're talking about a physical object that is 50 years old- and the sonics would just amaze you.
    And, what's also nice (and wasn't true 10 or more years ago, when I was last seriously involved in this stuff) is the huge availability of high quality reissues of great records from the past- on good quality vinyl, pressed with care, of records that you'd pay a fortune for, if you were to succeed in finding one of the early pressings. The reissues are priced quite reasonably, and make entering into this pursuit accessible. (Note: you don't have to spend a fortune on a turntable to far exceed the sonics of a fine CD player/transport-DAC, either. Several grand, used, will get you into a pretty serious playing field, sans cartridge and phono stage and it can be done for even less if one is inclined and willing to accept a few trade-offs from the highest levels of performance).
     
  18. jimpo1

    jimpo1 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #18 jimpo1, Jun 6, 2006
    Damn Bill, you take your hobbies very seriously!

    Cool stuff.
     
  19. DMC

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    #19 DMC, Jun 6, 2006
  20. Horsefly

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    #20 Horsefly, Jun 6, 2006
    I must respectfully "question" that statement. While I'm not an expert on turntable physics, a CD player consists of a laser that scans the digital data that is then buffered into the assorted processors and then played out at an EXACT rate whose stability is controlled by a crystal oscillator. I just can't see that an analog playback system with a MECHANICAL drive could possibly equal a digital system that only uses a mechanical drive to supply the "digits" to a buffering system that is then output at a rate controlled by a crystal oscillator. With that in mind, I would think that even a consumer CD player has a playback stability that is essentially perfect, i.e., minus any WOW and/or FLUTTER like a mechanical turntable would have. But I would agree that in the end, a 16 bit CD digital processor would not be able to "anty up" the quality of an analog signal that would contain an infinate number of audio variations. If the digital recording realm stepped up to a 24 bit or 32 bit processor, at some point, the human ear wouldn't know the difference. But of course you could only record 1 or 2 songs on a CD because it would contain so much digital data.

    I guess that it's a trade off. Play your analog vinyl records and enjoy the true fidelity, or make a CD copy that utilizes a limited 16 bit technology and save the vinyl from any future scratches. Just don't store them out in the hot sun!
     
  21. BigAl

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    #21 BigAl, Jun 6, 2006
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    I REALLY got into records when I moved to San Diego in the late 70s and discovered used record stores-my collection exploded! Haven't bought vinyl in years though.

    Here's a shot of one rack and my turntable, a Denon DP-62L. While not state-of-the-art at the time (early 80s) it was a fairly high end table for its day.

    And I don't care what the purists say about vinyl v. CDs, give me CDs: absolute clarity, no skips, pops or static and I've never heard the "warmth" vinyl purists maintain is there. CDs any day.
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  22. robert_c

    robert_c F1 Rookie

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    #22 robert_c, Jun 6, 2006
  23. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

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    #23 enjoythemusic, Jun 6, 2006
    George is a great guy and see him every year at CES. His cables are smooth, harmonically wonderful... reviewed them for Enjoy the Music.com a few months back.

    Uh oh, the 'all cables are the same' guys are going to string me up alive ;)

    As for analog versus digtal... can't we all just get along :)

    Enjoy THE MUSIC, :)

    Steven

    "...And if the cloud bursts thunder in your ear
    You shout and no one seems to hear
    And if the band you're in starts playing different tunes
    I'll see you on the dark side of the moon"

    PS: i have word the new HD-DVD format sounds AMAZING, meanwhile Sony is continuing shooting themselves in the foot.

    "...And if the cloud bursts thunder in your ear
    You shout and no one seems to hear
    And if the band you're in starts playing different tunes
    I'll see you on the dark side of the moon"
     
  24. whart

    whart F1 Veteran
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    #24 whart, Jun 6, 2006
    Agreed, not going to fight you on that one, Arlie. The objective is to get to the music.
    I am using Cardas cable throughout this system, as interconnects and speaker cables, including the jumpers on the horns. In this system, it sounds marvelous. I'll post pics of the horns later.
     
  25. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran

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    #25 Horsefly, Jun 6, 2006
    And what's with all the fascination with all the old Western Electric stuff? Ancient tube amplifiers and speakers going for astronomical prices on E-Bay. Sounds like a bunch of over-hyped junk to me.
     
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