Setting Valve timing | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Setting Valve timing

Discussion in '308/328' started by Brian Harper, Jan 15, 2007.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. Brian Harper

    Brian Harper F1 Rookie
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Feb 17, 2006
    4,078
    San Jose area
    Full Name:
    Brian Harper
    #26 Brian Harper, Jan 28, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    So now I can get the shims out.

    #1 exhaust - Shim is a 3.75, clearance is .305mm, so the shim for .500 clearance is 3.555. I inserted a 3.55 shim and double checked the clearance with a feeler gauge. Dial indicator on and I first detect movement at 53* BBDC, keep turning and movement stops at 21*ATDC. Well, the duration matches the manual, but that's 17* advaced from my manual. That seems like a lot. Am I off a tooth on the belt? Maybe I missed when swapping belts? Maybe I got it exactly like the pervious belts and they were off a tooth? Maybe the whole cam is just off? And add this to the mysterey - there are two sets of marks on the cam cap. One is factory and one I asume is from a mechanic at some later date. Neither lines up with TDC right now.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  2. Brian Harper

    Brian Harper F1 Rookie
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Feb 17, 2006
    4,078
    San Jose area
    Full Name:
    Brian Harper
    #27 Brian Harper, Jan 29, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Before knowing if I'm off a tooth on the exhaust cam I might as well see how that intake cam is. I have an issue here where I have mismatched cams. The intake cams are from a later car - these appear to be 1979 cams (exhaust cams are 1975 series 1, apparently). They have different lift and duration from early carb cars. This and a typo in the WSM was giving me fits. So #1, intake cam - Shim is 3.45, clearance is .229. For .500mm clearance I need a 3.179 shim, the closest would be a 3.20 shim. The Volvo shop doesn't have a 3.20, their thinnest is a 3.30, even the Ferrari manual says that the smallest shim is a 3.25, but even that is one size too big and I already rounded up a little. Rifledriver says that we can go zero clearance + and measure .500 valve lift, so that's my only option here. 3.45 shim + .229 clearance is 3.679, round up to next shim size for a 3.70. Slide it in, hook up the indicator. Turn the engine until I have .500 lift and I'm at 14* BTDC. Keep turning and .500 lift is at 40* ABDC. OK ,the 14* is 20* off, close to the 17* off of the last cam. Hmmm. But the closing spec is very close to being right - should be 46* and I'm at 40*. That's close. Not right on, but way closer than the opening event. I think I should time this to whatever 1979 cars are spec'd to, but no one has come forward with that info yet. I'll have to start a new thread and see if I can get smeone to check their manual. With the much decreased duration I'll have to see what Ferrrai said to do with this cam.

    Next cam is the front bank intake. I can't crank on the crank and see the dial indicator at the same time. Perfusion came over this afternoon and cranked the motor over while I crouched on the intake and tried to figure out WTF. First we needed to move the degree wheel to line up with 5-8 TDC. We could do the correction on the degree wheel, but I was already pushed to my mental limit. I made up a piston stop earlier in the day and we used this to find TDC. This picture is mostly for Perfusion who actally used this tool today, but never got to see it!
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  3. Brian Harper

    Brian Harper F1 Rookie
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Feb 17, 2006
    4,078
    San Jose area
    Full Name:
    Brian Harper
    We did the #8 intake lobe and came up with opening at 10*BTDC, closes at 44* ABDC. Just for giggles we also did the #5 intake lobe just to see if it would be the same and it was. Wow, repeatablility, who whould have guessed?

    OK, so the two intake cams have the same duration (whew! It's about time something went well) and they are timed very close to the same, just 4* different from each other. I'll guess that whomever timed these cams at least did it this way on purpose since they are both skewed the same way. I don't know if it is right, but the car did run ok at the very least.

    On to the front exhaust cam and I can't get the dial indicator in there. The firewall is just too close. I'll need either a different indicator or a contraption. More to come on that. So it looks so far like the 1-4 exhaust cam is out 17*. I hope that I didn't botch the belt replacement, not because I don't like to screw up (well, I don't, but I'm used to it), but perhaps it was like this before and I'll get a few more HP with a well timed cam. That is why I'm going to the trouble, after all!
     
  4. Brian Harper

    Brian Harper F1 Rookie
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Feb 17, 2006
    4,078
    San Jose area
    Full Name:
    Brian Harper
    OK, I got the specs for the intake cam. Goood news is that the intake cam is very close to spec. Should be 16 and 48, and I have 14 and 40. So the duration is right, and the cam is timed in the right neighborhood, which is comforting.

    I just need to measure the 5-8 exhaust cam now without cutting a hole in the firewall. Then the fun begins of putting this all right!
     
  5. Perfusion

    Perfusion F1 Rookie

    Oct 16, 2004
    4,151
    Marietta, GA
    Full Name:
    Aaron
    Let me know as soon as you get the correct dial measureometer for that front exhaust bank, and I'll be on my way over (barring I'm not at work!)...

    Congrats on finding the info!
     
  6. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

    Oct 29, 2004
    5,379
    NWA
    Full Name:
    Paul
    You know, when you do the same basic job every day you get to where you no longer have to think really hard to figure it out. Then someone throws some motor at you you never played with before and suddenly the head scratching begins. You spent all the money you ever thought you would ever spend on this "toy", and your scared of damaging anything because you sure as hell cant afford more, or cant afford explaining to the family why we wont be eating this month.

    So you stick your nose in there and start looking and reading, and pretty soon your so intoxicated with diagrams, charts, numbers, degree wheels, valve timing specs for every car made in the last 100 years, shim thickness figures, dial indicator readings, pretty soon your just sitting there like a stoned hippie watching grass grow, staring at the engine. Hours pass. Wow man, this was my weekend off and all I did was, uhmmm, what the hell was I doing again?

    Get away from it for a while. Go play with your kids. Go read a book. Go throw a stick for the dog. Take a walk. Put that damned car as far out of your head as you can. Stay out of the garage so you cant see the car. All this crap will settle like silt to the bottom of a roiled up lake, and it will become clear. No matter how you time the damned thing, if you have it close the lil marks on the cams are going to be really close to the lil marks on the cam caps when you put the motor at TDC #1 on compression, and it will still run. When your mind clears out, this job that has taken days will take only several hours to finish. Youll see it in your head and it all wont be so overwhelming.

    I guess what I should have said earlier, is the center of duration. The opening and closing points will be equadistant from that point. I believe the reason they add in extra clearance is to get the cam farther up off the base circle so your reading a more accurate timing event. It would not have to be .020", just more than stock a ways.
     
  7. Brian Harper

    Brian Harper F1 Rookie
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Feb 17, 2006
    4,078
    San Jose area
    Full Name:
    Brian Harper
    It doesn't have to be .020" or .5mm or any specific number, but it needs to be up the ramp a way to make sure you are past the very beginning of the ramp. It doesn't matter what the number really is, but you don't get to pick the number if you are using the factory specs! Whoever made the cam gets to pick the number and then you have to use it for timing the beginning or end events. If you time by center of the lobe you will probably be close enough, but to make it factory perfect the exhaust opening and intake closing times are very important for getting the most from scavenging effects. I've been looking at cam theory stuff for the past few days and these two events are paramount. Moving these events around changes not only where the power is delivered in the RPM band, but also the efficiency of the engine overall.

    I'm not planning on playing with these from factory - yet.
     
  8. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

    Oct 29, 2004
    5,379
    NWA
    Full Name:
    Paul
    I guess we all see things in different ways sometimes. I know what I am trying to say, but maybe its just not coming across the way I want to say it.

    I have a circle. Its 360 degees around. I have a cam that has ,010" clearance over a valve. The cam gets to zero clearance and begins to open the valve at 0 degrees. I rotate the cam, and at 180 degrees, the valve is closed, and the clearance between the cam and valve begins to open up. The midway point between 0 degrees, and 180 degrees, is 90 degrees. Am I not correct?

    I open up the valve clearance to a 1/4 inch, or, .250". With all that clearance, as the cam turns, the clearance doesnt close up until the cam is at 60 degrees, and the valve opens. At 120 degrees the valve is closed again and clearance begins to open up. The midway point between 60 degrees and 120 degrees is "still" 90 degrees. No? Did I miss something?

    I didnt measure lift. I didnt look for the "center" of lift. I didnt even find the lobe "center". I simply located the center of "duration" by noting the open and close points on the degree wheel.

    Anyway, it worked for me. If I am wrong, someone please explain it to me. I swear if it makes sense to me I will capitulate.
     
  9. Brian Harper

    Brian Harper F1 Rookie
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Feb 17, 2006
    4,078
    San Jose area
    Full Name:
    Brian Harper
    Re-read what you quoted from me. You don't get to pick the number if you are using factory specs. I have not seen any mention in any factory manuals for where the center of the duration is supposed to be. They give open and close. Those are the factory specs. If you want to use the factory timing specs you have to use their lift spec. If you calculate your own specs, then you can use your own measurements.

    I think that if everything is as it is supposed to be that using the center of duration will work. If the cam is worn or something is not as it should be this could be disasterous for performance. I know my car is the exception with mis-matched cams, but if I had just gone with center of duration and my workshop manual I'd be in big trouble. That said, I think that center of duration would be fine for most cars. But since you have to put an indicator on the valve anyway, why not just do it Ferrari's way?
     
  10. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

    Oct 29, 2004
    5,379
    NWA
    Full Name:
    Paul
    I cant explain this any further. I appologise if I have made this appear more complicated than it already is.
     
  11. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

    Oct 19, 2001
    16,078
    Arlington Heights IL
    Full Name:
    Kenneth
    This is really good advice!!! I've been there myself with the Lotus. I was in the middle of a project and I just can't figure out why it's not working. So with pieces all over the garage, I went out to play golf. Wife wonders if I'll tow it to my so-called mechanic and flush more money away; she's not a fan.

    Came back to the car the next day and solved the problem in 5 minutes. Stupid me had the ignition timing 180 degrees out. I was SURE it was right; I checked it 3 times but I had the cam lobe direction backwards in my mind.

    It's amazing how a break can clear the cobwebs!

    Ken
     
  12. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
    Consultant Owner

    May 5, 2001
    7,022
    Groton, MA
    Full Name:
    Verell Boaen
    For adjustment purposes, the shim doesn't need to be hardened. So you can turn a steel or hard Al(7075,6061) rod down to the correct diameter & part off a piece. If necessary, file or grind the piece to the exact thickness, just make sure the sides are parallel.

    BTW, how are you measuring the clearance to that many digits?
     
  13. Brian Harper

    Brian Harper F1 Rookie
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Feb 17, 2006
    4,078
    San Jose area
    Full Name:
    Brian Harper
    Craftsman feeler guages in .001" increments with a metric equivalent marked on them. They really offer the ultimate experience when it comes to illusion of accuracy, so I use them. It helps to continue using the thousandths of a mm decimal place even though the feelers make jumps by a few tenths of a mm at a time.

    You're just checking to see how much of this I actually believe, right? I don't think I'm under any illusions of how important it is to keep everything accurate to .000001mm. But if it is worth doing, it is worth doing right.

    Or at least .0001mm close to right.
     
  14. Brian Harper

    Brian Harper F1 Rookie
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Feb 17, 2006
    4,078
    San Jose area
    Full Name:
    Brian Harper
    Progress has been slow here with rebuilding the water pump and getting a dial indicator that will fit into the confined space of the 5-8 exhaust cam, but I finally got everything set up and Perfusion came over and turned the engine over while I perched on the intake again. It took close to three hours to get the cam timing where it will be. Initially the cam was more than 15* off. Perfusion put the engine at the correct place and I moved the cam. That's not easy as my cams have no flats and I'm working against a lobe trying to open a valve. Next time I have the cams out I'm going to grind at least a small flat to get some traction. Of course the holes didn't line up anywhere close, so I had loosen the belt, pull the cog, advance a tooth, put it all back together and try again. Are holes so expensive that we couldn't have a few more to choose from? I believe it was my Alfa that had a continuous ring of holes to choose from.

    We also spent probably 20 minutes trying to find the pin once when it popped out, bounced off of something in the engine compartment and vanished. Aaron finally found it hiding on a frame gusset by digging around with a magnet.

    So after about 2.5 hours the front exhaust bank opens at 35* BBDC, one degree off of factory specs. We didn't measure the closing of the valve, and we should have, but I did previously measure duration and it was correct, so the other side should be correct. In hindsight we should have done everything with the exhaust closing, not opening, but as I said duration was correct so it will also be 1* off. And I'm going to call 1* close enough. It is about a 15* change, so I'm hoping for a dramatic performance improvement.

    So that should have been the hardest cam to do, and it is done. I hope the remaining three go more easily and quicker! So has anyone else done this on a GT4 with the engine in? What a job! It might actually be easier to pull the engine.
     
  15. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 6, 2002
    79,406
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    Why would you want to run different profile cams intake vs exhaust?

    The later '78 -'79 cams ARE much, or at least a little, different from the early ones...

    I'd pursue a matched set at this point you are gonna end up with some vodoo mixture of ramp profiles, valve lifts, etc.......what is the history of your cam set to get this way?

    You are doing good work, I hate to see it undermined by this.....
     

Share This Page