Looks like it sold. Anyone know for how much?
Are we talking about this one: http://www.ferraris-online.com/pages/carintro.php?reqcardir=FE-246GTS-08030 What a great project.
If that's the car I think it is, it was for sale on the Bay Area Craigslist.com prior to F.J./Sheehan acquiring it. It was listed at $50k in, I imagine, identical condition as it is shown in the pics on his site. 50k --> 109k --> put it back together --> $200k? Sickening...
As detailed in the latest SCM, the car sold for 95k. Sheehan said that it could be finished to 90+points for about 130-140k total. By my reading, that included all labor to assemble, etc- no owner contribution of time/labor. He estimates that finishing to Platinum level (95+ points) would cost 160-175k (total) and that to finish to true 100 point level (rare indeed, and essentially undrivable unless you want to lose 100k on your first drive) would cost as much as 300k. Restorations almost always cost more than cars are worth, and it isn't even close if you want a 95-100 point car in this case. Why do you think Sheehan/Fantasy Junction sold it unfinished? Seems like a reasonable deal given the history, etc, but you could buy some awesome Dinos (with no risk and no hassle) for less than the owner will have into it properly finished. Unfortunately, we all like to do them ourselves and we are all suckers for cars that need help because we love cars so much. I like the Dino, but I'd buy a perfect Boxer instead for that 95k. Dinos are unbelieveably pretty, but the driving experience doesn't do it for me, especially the missing 6 cylinders, which is what the car really needs to get out of its own way. JMN ('68 365gt 2+2, '81 carb Boxer, '77 glass euro 308 GTB, '58,'59,and '65 Alfa Spider Veloce, '69 GTV, 2006 Caterham 7 CSR, etc)
The car on Craigslist was a different car, it was incomplete, missing multiple parts. This car is a clean, low milage, one owner car with all tools. manuals. I think it sold in the high 90's Brian
Well...at least I can sleep tonight now. If they had been the same car, I might have actually had to kill myself. I thought Sheehan had a clean, $60k "flip" with just some pics and basic advertising. I see now it wasn't the case.
Looking at the images, does anyone else notice how crudely the rectangular cutout for the side marker lights is? http://www.ferraris-online.com/pages/imgview.php?reqcardir=FE-246GTS-08030&imgnum=P007 A sloppy aftermarket conversion of a Euro to USA version perhaps?
...and you don't even get all of the lug nuts - there are only two per wheel http://www.ferraris-online.com/pages/imgview.php?reqcardir=FE-246GTS-08030&imgnum=P007
My understanding of what gets you points completeness and proper fit/finish etc, not necessarily a tiny bit of patina. So what would be lost on that first drive? I've read that Pebble winner decisions have been made (apparently) based on which cars participated in some of the event drives vs those which were not driven. I'm not casting any aspersions on Pebble Judging, please don't read that into this, only that driven cars can be driven and still get 100 points. Just curious, as I want to drive my car once its done. Cheers, Jon
At the level of judging that takes place at Pebble Beach, the preperation of the car before the show is unbleivable. Starting with a perfectly restored car, it can take weeks of cleaning and polishing of every nook and cranny both inside and out to present a competitive car. So once you have the car that clean and polished, are you going to drive it on the street? One puddle of water erasing thousands of dollars spent detailing. That is why so many of the cars being shown arrive in covered trailers just before the show. The only milage driven being from the parking lot to the green. I myself like to see the cars on the road and think there should be some type of point reward for driving to the concours to encourage owners to actually drive their cars. Mark
Ok, so the level of cleanliness could cost a point or two? I guess those detailing guys earn their money at the show then. BTW, here is the official position ('slight' is OK): From: http://www.cavallino.com/judging.html or http://www.ferrariclubofamerica.org/concours_guidelines.cfm "10. The key purpose of the Concorso is to promote the preservation of the Ferrari in its original state. Therefore, the primary focus of the judging will be on originality, authenticity and condition, with minor emphasis on cosmetics. Deductions will be made for over-restoration; extravagance detracts from originality. Applied patina is discouraged. Spyder conversions and unauthorized rebodies are ineligible for judging. Over-cleanliness is unnecessary; some slight road dust and wear is to be expected. Ferraris are meant to be driven" Mark, I'm not questioning your observations, just curious what the realities of judging are all about. Motob, are you still following this thread? Cheers, Jon
I think it is true that in general there is only a minor emphasis on cleanliness and presentation, but that "minor" emphasis will still differentiate a 100.0 (one hundred point zero) car from it's many, many almost 100 point brethren. A 100 point car is typically delivered to the show direct from the restoration shop after spending 2-3+ times what it costs to do a beautiful "normal" restoration. I should also clarify that I'm not talking about 100 point cars at local or regional shows, but at first class international shows. I also don't think you can expect to drive a 100 point car and have it stay a 100 point car. Feel free to prove me wrong. First, you need to score 100 points (not 99.7 or any other number), then you need to drive the car some reasonable number of miles (at least hundreds but ideally thousands to prove your point), then go back to another first class international event and score 100 points again. Simple enough, go for it. I'll be the first to congratulate you. Don't forget to budget a grand or so for q-tips.
Ok, sounds like a fun challenge! But, I would need to score 100 points at one of the top shows, and I seriously doubt I'm in that league financially.
Interesting discussion concerning concours and the elusive 100 point perfect car . . . so let me jump in from my Dino owner and judge's perspective. I'm a Senior Judge (that means I'm old and I've done it alot) for the FCA and last year I judged the Dino class at Cavallino. I also ocassionally judge the 330GT 2+2 class since I owned one of those that I restored myself and DROVE for many years to numerous concours from Atlanta to Watkins Glen. The previous post which quoted the "rules" on the concours philosophy was totally correct - - originality, completeness and correctness are most important. We do subtract points for over-restoration. We don't subtract points for dust and dirt if it is obvious that the vehicle is well cared for. I can tell you there are very few 100 point Dinos in the US . . . and that has nothing to do with cleanliness. It has more to do with a missing wrench in the tool kit, the wrong valve stem, wool carpets with leather surging, a turn signal that won't work, incorrect hose clamps, etc. And you are correct, it is very difficult and expensive to get it all right, and those who do are rarely enjoying what's great about a Dino - - the driving experience as well as the classic beauty. So, go for the 95 to 98 points, earn your platinum award AND enjoy what's really important -- driving. Bill
I can't imagine a 100 point, 30 year old Ferrari would even exisit, and if it did I can't imagine it getting 100 points. A judge can always find a nit to pick if he wants, and who's to say what it left the factory like? These are limited production, hand built cars and I bet virtually every one had some details different from one another. I call those super restored show cars 'statues of cars' because if they aren't driven at least a little bit, that's all they are. Ken
In at least one situation in recent years at Pebble Beach, when 2 finalist cars in a certain class were judged to the same point level, the issue was decided in favor of the car which had completed the 'Tour' event around the peninsula the previous day. So, even in the rarefied air of Pebble Beach, driving your car is the correct procedure! James
As of 2005, "The Tour" was no longer the tie breaker. This event was over subscribed and getting exteremly hard to manage, primarily because of it's tie breaking nature (extra point). Rules just changed this year. This is not an opinion, this information is direct from the Sunday morning judges meeting. I am a judge at Pebble Beach. "The Tour" is a fabulous event, a must see for those visiting Pebble Beach weekend.
Ken, Believe me, at the top, national level serious concours where the judges are hand-picked (not celebrities or local inexperienced volunteers), the judges know that the early cars varied as they came off the line (ever look closely at the fit andd finish of the carpets on an original Dino? Yuck!), and they do consider that. Each car is judged by 3 people who have had an "intimate" relationship with that model . . . they have long term ownership, restoration experience and/or incredible knowledge of that model. Many times I've had discussions with the other two judges I'm working with about a particular variant of the car we're inspecting. So the "nits," as you call them, are often declared "that was a possibility." On the other hand, if the targa top is the same color as the body, you better have proof from the factory that it was delivered to the dealer that way. It's a pretty reasonable process. Bill
Look at the all-silver Boxer in the "Factory Photos from 25 Years Ago" thread. It's in the first post, several pictures down. That one would certainly give many of the Boxer "experts" around here fits! If you photoshopped that car out of the picture and showed it on FerrariChat, you could get many, many opinions that about how "non-original" that car is!
