Bell that was great to watch. Excuse my ignorance but was that the clutch slave cylinder you were taking apart? How does one bleed the clutch? Sounds like a pain in the arse By the way I like the special effects at the end with super fast wheel fitment, reminded me of the Six Million Dollar Man
Ok... so mine is at least a bit more then 13,75cm with the current adjustment, perhaps even more as I measured it with a tie rip so I can't go into the top iconic part. My guess is that the metal rod shrinks so much with cold (since it is longer) that it influences the engagements with a too long rod where as Dot4 fluid does not expand or shrink. What I didn't tell yet.. is that when the gearbox has warmed up fully my clutch slips a bit when giving more trottle. Logical since the rod has more to expand then the fluid. I have this suspicion for a while now, but could not check against the original measurements. Splendid Bell! Very kind of you for measuring the rod! Let's put that theory in practice. I need to cut it off since I cannot adjust it to a shorter lenght. Will be back this week on it. @Peter: in the vid, Bell took only the rod out. The cylinder stayed in place, but since the Superformance cylinder does not have a segerring you need to keep piston pressed inside of the cylinder. If it falls out you need to fill it up again on the front and bleed it. On top of the cylinder there is a bleed valve to get possible are out. I do not believe you would have air in your system else you would have problems right after it got replaced. In your case you all of a sudden had this issue (coincidentally, now that it is cold(er)) But now that it is colder.. old rubber is not the most reliable rubber. The rubber sealing might leak in the master cylinder or torned, now that it is more cold. Anyway that is a theory. The only way to check it is to take it apart. For 26 year old cars this is normal that this needs to be maintenanced. In case the slave cylinder is leaking again... I guess that is warranty In any case it seems you have a (internal) leak somewhere in the fluid system. That can only be your Master cylinder or Slave cylinder.
Ok guys, I shortened my rod today and the initial test drive looks good. Tomorrow I will make another test drive so that it is stone cold when I drive off to my work and the traffic jams will certainly heat things up to see if the plates slip when hitting the trottle.
Hi Chaps, I'm with you MvT on Peters diagnosis I think that it is the master cylindar that has sucked in some air via the old hard seal but is not conversly leaking as you would expect ie fluid on your foot. When the clutch slave cylindar went on Kato the master did pee some fluid onto my foot at the time so I bought 2 new units but only replaced the slave because with new fluid and regular use the master is working perfectly at the moment. Now I do know that it's days are numbered but it is not a component that will really fail suddenly and so I'll just keep it in till it shows signs of packing up. As for your problem MvT, if the rod is too long by 1cm it's probably going to slip believe it or not. The only thing is didn't you just slip the actuator fork on by hand or did you lever the clutch actuator arm down to get it to fit thereby partly releasing the clutch plate in the process. Damn it's hard to describe what I mean.... Regards Bell. PS. We may be coming over Amsterdam this year so we'll catch you there when we do. Diamonds are Forever (Filmed in Amsterdam) is one of my favourite Bond films, although 'Skyfall' should be cos I'm actually in it, ha ha.
Hi Johan you're so right, its great! I am now taking the car back to Ferrari tomorrow to inspect the problem, although by the time i drive there it will probably shift ok They changed my clutch slave cylinder and shift shaft seals last summer so they know the car very well. The clutch slaver cylinder was from Superformance so i hope its not failed. From what we have gone through so far it could be the clutch slave cylinder, clutch master cylinder, or air in that system or worn silent block bushes? I will keep you all posted so we can all learn from this Thanks guys. Peter
My money is on air in the system created by air being drawn into the master cylinder via old pistol seal. ;-)
Now I would not get that if I didn't know what you meant! If that makes sense Old situation: - New clutch and flywheel, a new slave cylinder, revised Master cylinder. - Put on the rod with free movement between the piston and the lever. (no force at all or putting down the lever to get the rod on its place, that was your question) - Bleeded the system with a vacuum pump. - Yup, I have a nice pressure on the clutch pedle. Good from here - Engine start, put in gear (rather difficult now when cold) and drive away All good here still. - engine warms up - Normal drive Hmmm... did I just notice something? - Transmission warms up. '87 Golf GTI passes by, want to follow.. upppsss.. definately notice something. Little bit of a slippery clutch. Bit embarrassing though! Now if I would open the bleed valve after this event Dot4 poors out and the lever comes up... that means it builds up pressure. When things are cooled off the problem went away. I had no idea how long the rod needed to be. Merely had a feeling it was to long and had a suspicion that the rod was expanding. My feeling on the rod was correct since your measurement, but I was wrong on my expanding theory. Or perhaps it may influnce a bit. During removal of the rod I noticed that it had a lot of pressure build up already when cold and the piston was sitting at an unusual high point. Since there is a spring in the cylinder it probably puts more pressure on the piston when things get hot and extra fluid comes into the system, which cannot escape. Now having shortened the rod, did some good quality traffic jam driving, I have no issues anymore passing the Golf GTI. The way home was splendid as well! I do need to say I still have some gear selection issues when cold, but it has improved. I cannot really link it why it has improved. I am happy and give it maybe a think tonight or maybe not some things just happen. My linkage still needs fine tuning and my guess is that it will be gone after adjusting, except the 2nd gear issue when cold. Amsterdam has changed a lot since then, worth to pay a visit I would say No probleem to hook up somewhere, just PM me when you guys will. Thanks again Bell for the measurement! Another issue solved! Enjoy the weekend chaps as I will be virtually signing off for the weekend. haha @Mark, how are you doing on the shifting issue?
Ok guys so the results are in! This morning I took the car to Ferrari to finally find out what the problem is. When I started the car from cold it would not go in any gear at all. I had to push it out of the garage. I let it warm up for a while and would not go in 1st, 2nd or 3rd. 4th and 5th needed too much force. The clutch pedal had no resistance at all as I pushed the pedal down. Finally I managed to get it in 3rd and pulled off and when I was finally able to change gear it would pop out as I slid the shifter. The drive there was terrible. Finally I arrived at Ferrari main agent where I always take it. First thing was to press the clutch pedal and straight away they could tell there was air in the system. They pumped the clutch pedal continuously and it fixed the soft pedal and firmed up to how it should be. I had such a low biting point on the clutch and I only had to lift a millimeter and it would move off. Now the biting point was higher as it used to be. They put it on the lift for a full inspection of any leaks from the clutch slave cylinder which was changed only 6 months ago and also checked the slave cylinder and both were perfectly dry, no leaks there and the fluid reservoir was full. They bled the clutch with a vacuum system to ensure any small bubbles came out. It was taken for a test drive and all was ok. I drove it home and felt like a different car, back to how it should be and was perfect all the way. The service and attention from Ferrari was amazing as always and willing to help even though it was limited Saturday staff at short notice. So there you go. No silent block bushes to change, no gear linkage or forks to adjust, no new clutch and no cylinders or parts at all. Just a few bubbles of air causing me all this grief. Bell bloke you were spot on again I will keep an eye on it and if it happens again then I know it's time to change the master cylinder as the rubber seals are probably letting air in. Thanks to everyone and hopefully we have all learned something together. Peter
hmmm.. It does not really sound logical, but doing this also requires to adjust the linkage afterwards. It is really not a bad idea to replace the silent block busings and while you are at it you might want to do your shift shaft seals since you have the shift shaft out anyway. FYI, usually when the bushings are in a bad state you will feel it in any gear that it does not go smoothly, some gears more then others and the shft lever clangs againt your gate becayse of the free movement in the bushings. Hope this works!
Good to see that you are on the road again Ouch ouch ouch, that is not a pleasant drive! Having air in this system is either being able to drive away or not If I may be honest. There must be something leaking here (still). It cannot be that you all of a sudden have air in your system so it means you have an external leak.. Since it happened once you have a high chance it will occur again and the seals won't get any better over time. I would replace the master cylinder on forehand as only one tiny bubble can cause you already a lot of grief. You can have 2 leaks here in the master cylinder. An internal one and external one. External: This is what Bell mentioned and probably mostlikely what happened here, else you do not have air in the system. (unless you have a leak somewhere else, which is uncommon) Internal: You have 2 piston sealings in the master cylinder. One is to make sure the liquid stays inside the system and that it won't go outside it. The second is to prevent the liquid to return to the reservoir so that it stays in the clutch sytem. Here you will see little waves in your reservoir when you push the clutch peddle. unless it is low level and then you get air in the system. If you have low level liquid it means also you have an external leak. I hope it stays away Peter, but if it happens again. Change the master cylinder.
Thanks that's exactly my plan. When the slave cylinder was first changed the clutch pedal was so soft but I never had the shifting problem which slowly came along and got worse. It could be that the new slave cylinder had a small air bubble still there when installed that travelled around the system and symptoms got worse as it travelled to inside the master cylinder? I don't know. But it was good news and I'm very happy about it. And as you and Bell bloke have said if it happens again then I'll change the master cylinder. At least it's all clear now. I was hoping to go for a drive but we have very heavy rain here in London at the moment. I tested the clutch last night and feels nice and firm still, unlike before. Cheers.
I checked the levels and no leaks anywhere. This was done yesterday at Ferrari when they bled the clutch. They inspected the system front to back. The fluid reservoir level has not changed since 6 months ago when the slave cylinder was replaced. So if anything is wrong it could be an internal leak inside the master cylinder as you said. If not then it was something that happened when the slave cylinder was changed. Just one of those things. I'll keep an eye on it over the next few weeks.
Hi MvT, I agree completely. I spoke to Peter on the phone and the way I see it there are 2 scenarios here. 1. Is that Ferrari didn't bleed the system properly when they did the slave unit. This I would be incredulous at since it isn't exactly difficult. However I really do think that they think that's what they did, which is not very confidence inspiring. Either that or they are trying to save Peter money.... 2. Is that the master cylindar rubber is acting like a one way valve and drawing air in when the clutch pedal is released thus drawing in air to the system. My money is still on that one. ;-) I told Peter to prepare for that one, the fat lady is still on the stage.... Interestingly my master cylindar was acting as one way valve but in the other direction ie. it was leaking fluid onto my foot. What and how those rubbers fail is just down to luck really. Regards Bell.
Ooohh myyy.... If they didn't bleed it enough, then I may hope Peter didn't pay for this or at least get an oil change for free next time when it stays good. This is not a tiny mistake if that turns out to be it. Reminds me why I do most of the plumbing. I was looking for a diagram of the master this morning to what we talk about, but run out of time as I needed to give some attention to another project I am working on and you guys may like it. This is the closest of what I could find that resembles the one of the Mondial. If the red arrow seal is leaking the valve cannot get enough pressure and might not close the return to the reservoir. Usually both red and green arrow seals are bad and air can get into the system. Image Unavailable, Please Login
That's a great diagram and makes it easier to understand the possible part failure. Of course there was no charge at all, they were fantastic and really helped me on such short notice and got me back on the road thanks to their immediate attention. I will see how it goes over the next few weeks and if it happens again then the master cylinder will be replaced.
'Ferrari not bled Peters clutch system properly' I think they must think that's what they did because they would have replaced his master cylindar otherwise or invesigated the problem further. I like you MvT prefer to pack my own parachute, but that knowlege takes a while to aquire and you can't micro manage everthing...
Good to hear Peter! --> the no charge. Hahaha agree on that one Bell! Also.. sometimes.. it is just better that you simply do not know
Hey guys, as it fits the topic of the shift linkage I may ask my question here. Where do I find the adjustment for the selector linkage? Do I have to access it from underneath the car by removing the undertray panel? Cheers! Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
