Shifter adjustment woes...strange results | FerrariChat
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Shifter adjustment woes...strange results

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by Shamile, Apr 27, 2009.

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  1. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran

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    #1 Shamile, Apr 27, 2009
    Dear Ferraristi,

    I hooked up the shift rod and started working on the shifter adjustment. I wound in the turnbuckle to do the fore-aft adj. I got that done. I put it back in second gear and tried to adjust the side to side.

    It's really amazing how little adj. can throw the whole thing off. I guess with a small loss on the silent bush at the engine side, turnbuckle, silent bush on the shifter side and the shifter itself, added up has a certain amount of play.

    I put the gear in second and tightened the turnbuckle as to have even space on either side of the shift gate.

    What I noticed:

    When you have the engine running( car on jack stands ) and the gear in neutral, the wheels always spin slightly. OK, with that, I could shift into 1st and all the way up to 5th. (4th and 5th a little tight ) BUT, If I put the brakes on (wheels not spinning ), it would have a very hard time going into first.

    I noticed that when the engine and trans. were very warm, the wheels would not spin. If I moved the lever toward 1st...the wheels would start to spin and go perfectly into gear. Same for reverse. If the wheels were stopped ( no brakes ) and moved the lever towards reverse, the wheels would start going backwards and the gear would slide in perfectly. With the brakes on, moving 1st or R, the gear would go in but very very hard ( no noise or grinding of any sort ) .

    Just wondering...

    Could my gear oil have anything to do with the difficulty sliding into gear. Back in early 08 I changed the gear oil. Before that, I didn't even know what a shift issue was. The car was perfect...even cold 2nd gear.

    I changed the oil to Redline based on the forum. I had nothing but vibration and chatter. OK, I called Redline. They said to add 4oz of GM friction modifier and the chatter went away but shifting issues got really bad.

    I then dumped out that oil and went to the Royal Purple....pretty good. I'm wondering, if it only took 4 0z in about 9.5 quarts of gear oil to make a difference, is it possible that some left over modifier in the oil left in the box ( residual and coating the gears ) could have an effect?

    Strange results....

    Ok I've now tightened the turnbuckle and got the side to side pressure on the shifter even.

    I kept adjusting the turnbuckle centered, bias towards one side then bias towards the other. I finally got the car to shift all gears and even though it would go into all gears, it was difficult to get it in first and reverse as I described when the wheels were held by the brakes.

    OK, I dropped the car on the ground, go for a test drive and everything is crap...gears difficult to shift and like my old problem, won't go into 2nd or 4th. Yet on the jack stand, would go into gear at speed. (up to 80mph in 5th )

    How can it shift on the stands at speed but will not shift on the road. The car on the jack stands are in the proper lift positions. I have them at the locater pins behind the front wheels and inside of the rads.

    Since the shifter is so sensitive from the shifter to the engine, if something were out....then placing it on the ground would throw off the adjustment ( adjusted to the car on stands. ) Is something else at play here?

    At least I know ( on the stands ) running through all the gears at speed, the car will shift.

    ...if only it would do it on the road....all would be well. :(


    Arrrgh !

    Shamile

    Freeze...Miami Vice !
     
  2. jselevan

    jselevan Formula 3

    Nov 2, 2003
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    #2 jselevan, Apr 27, 2009
    Shamile - sounds as though your clutch is not fully disengaging.

    When shifting with synchromesh, the synchro ring acts as a friction device to bring the two mating gears to the same rotational speed. The presence of cold, thick transmission oil will inhibit acceleration of a shaft, while deceleration of a rotating shaft and associated gears is enhanced, hence, the synchro ring must do more work. In a similar fashion, if the clutch is not disengaging fully, the main shaft will continue to rotate when shifting. This forces the synchro ring to work overtime to synchronize the shaft rotational speeds.

    When the car is in the air, with the wheels spinning freely, the output shaft can spin as well. This provides "relief" for the synchro ring. When you brake the wheels, the synchro ring must do all of the work.

    When the clutch is on the floor, at what point do you notice the car to begin to move, or in this case, when the rear wheels begin to spin (on the jacks). If the wheels spin within an inch or so of the floor board (when lifting the clutch pedal), you are not getting full disengagement.

    Jim S.
     
  3. silvergts1998

    silvergts1998 Formula 3

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    #3 silvergts1998, Apr 27, 2009
    did you make sure your shifter was centered before you put it into 2nd to adjust the linkage?
     
  4. carguy

    carguy F1 Rookie

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    #4 carguy, Apr 28, 2009
    Hello Shamile! I considered it normal for the rear tires to slowly rotate with the engine running, car in neutral, off the ground. You should be able to easily stop the wheels from spinning by hand, if not then the clutch may be dragging slightly. As for adjusting the shifter, here is a "caveman" method that has worked for me....now don't laugh...

    The biggest problem is that when tightening things up, the shift rods tend to move - so the best thing to do is lock them in place. First thing is to do is put the trans in 2nd gear. Now clamp a pair of vice grips onto the rear shift rod, then c-clamp the grips to the frame rail below the oil filter area. Now the rear shift rod should be in the ideal position for adjusting the shifter. Now adjust things until the shifter is centered in the gate, front to back and side to side. Now before tightening the jam nuts, use a crescent wrench to keep the front shift rod from rotating, then finally tighten up the jam nuts.

    This method has worked well for me in the past, I hope it helps...
     
  5. Jagbuff

    Jagbuff Formula 3

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    #5 Jagbuff, Apr 28, 2009
    Shamille, have tried removing the shifter gate to see if it will shift when driving - if it does you still need some adjustments. Good luck, I think that you are almost there!
     
  6. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran

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    #6 Shamile, Apr 28, 2009
    Dear Ferraristi,

    Thanks guys....I'm trying to get there...but, what a winding road.

    Since quite a few people have asked about this, I keep testing. I will report back on the pedal position.

    Once the gear oil warms up, the wheel spin very slowly or come a stop. I can put the clutch in, rev (blip )to 6800 rpm and the wheels don't pick up speed.

    Also, warmed up, (wheels no longer moving ) pushing the gear lever towards the gear I want to select and the wheels start moving before engagement...may be normal, I don't know.

    BTW, I like you description of what's going on in the box.



    Yes, I read in all the advice given that it should be centered in neutral and the distance in the throw between 2 & 3 should be the same distance.

    Carguy! Welcome back. :) ....just in time. I'm having sooooo much fun.

    I read that thread of yours where your gate was off by 1/4" I pulled my gate and shifted to see if the gate was getting things held up...nope...it was fine.


    I still think I'm getting full disengagement from the clutch as I lost all gears later on in my test drive. At the traffic light, clutch in...just fine.

    While on the jack stands, I put the car in gear, clutch in, brake on...no struggle on change in sound from the engine.

    I'll try all your advice and keep reporting back.


    Shamile

    Freeze....Miami Vice !
     
  7. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran

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    #7 Shamile, Apr 30, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2009
    Dear Ferraristi,

    I put the car in gear, clutch in, foot firmly on brakes. I release the clutch slowly to see where it starts to engage. The pedal is way over the halfway point closer to the top of the pedal travel where it starts to release.

    What I did while releasing the clutch with the brake on, I would listen to the engine to where the rpm would start to drop and repeat this a few times to get a baseline. The pedal position was quite consistent.

    Before I even started, I decided to bleed the clutch again. Off came the back panels and with my mitty vac pulled 2 containers full of fresh "no bubbles" fluid out.



    I tried adjusting the shift rod again and same result....wheels turning, great shifting, brakes on...lousy.

    Do y'all think there's something else at play here? These results couldn't just come from just a shifter adj...could they? I'm kinda ready to throw in the towel and give the car to the Fpimp. Is it possible a clutch fork got out of adjustment and is doing this?

    I just don't understand how I could lose gear shifting while on the beginning of the test drive, shifting into 1,3,5,R was all smooth and easy. 2 & 4 was impossible...now, all impossible.


    Shamile

    Freeze...Miami Vice !
     
  8. lasvegascop

    lasvegascop Karting

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    #8 lasvegascop, May 3, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Shamile,

    I just replaced my clutch on my TR and I am experiencing exactly the same thing! But I am using Mobil1 for gear oil, which I believe is the best when it came to shifting compared to the "stock" oil that the TR came with.

    So I think there must be something wrong with the disengaugemnt of the clutches like someone already mentioned. I have no clue why there would be a problem though? Everything is new, all parts replaced including the pilot bearing and throwout bearing. As to forks, my 86 doeasnt have any forks! I was wondering how the heck that thing was working but gave up and just wanted to put the car together.

    When I press the clutch I can feel it disengauge in about the first 25% of the travel to the floorboard, where it used to be somewhere in the middle or passed that towards the floor.

    I hope if there is a fix for this without tearing the whole thing apart again? Geez!
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  9. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran

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    #9 Shamile, May 3, 2009
    Dear Ferraristi,



    The forks I mention are the in the gearbox which the input shift rod slides to select each gear.

    ...believe me, your TR has them. :D

    Have you checked out your slave cylinder seals? This was the issue that started my odyssey.


    Shamile

    Freeze...Miami Vice !
     
  10. lasvegascop

    lasvegascop Karting

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    #10 lasvegascop, May 3, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Hmmmm....I didnt check the slave but it was working just fine prior to removal and replacement of the new clutch, plus nothing is leaking ie. the brake/clutch fluid.

    Now the only thing that I am not sure about is the "spacers" that were used in the clutch. There is 6 of them, which I am including the picture of. Does anyone know if that's where they go?????? The manual really doesnt show clearly where they go, only that they exist. Like I said, the shifting was great prior to the T/O bearing seisure/failure and removal so it has to be the clutch.

    And to prior your question about the "fork"...yeah, I thought you meant the fork that pushes the T/O bearing to disegauge the clutch.....not the one inside the tranny...sorry, misunderstanding on my part.

    Any help with the spacers would be highly appreciated!

    Ski
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  11. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran

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    #11 Shamile, May 3, 2009

    Dear Ferraristi,

    I checked my digital photos and the spacers go on the threaded studs on top of the aluminum spacer ring. I'm sure if you look close, you should see a shadow of where they were.

    BTW...

    With my potential clutch issue/ non shifting issue, I don't want to say something with absolute certainty. But, I did check my photos and that's where they were.

    hope this helps. :)


    Shamile

    Freeze....Miami Vice !
     
  12. northern frog

    northern frog Karting

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    #12 northern frog, May 4, 2009
    Shamille,
    Considering that you have checked most of the reasonable issues it may be time to consider the more unlikely causes; is your car flexing unduly?. If you have a four poster can you adjust your shifter with the weight on all four wheels? The reason I mention the flex is because some of my (older) cars do flex, some visibly, but not the TestaRossa. Checking the door clearances should tell you.
     
  13. lasvegascop

    lasvegascop Karting

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    #13 lasvegascop, May 4, 2009
    Can you post your photos? I always find very educating to look at someone else's cars? Specially when things are apart...Who knows maybe I forgot something? Why would the clutch NOT fully or partially disengage? All new parts, worked before just fine, geez this thing has an attitude!

    Ski
     
  14. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran

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    #14 Shamile, Jun 28, 2009
    Dear Ferraristi,

    Car still won't shift but I did get the shifter adjustment done. Wow, that adjustment is soooo super sensitive. One slight turn this way....no good, one slight turn that way...no good.

    Jim Mcgee ( Dr Ferrari) gave me a good tip for the adjustment and it worked.

    After you have done the centering adjustment with the turnbuckle and now you want to tighten things up properly....

    Remove the shift ball and gate. Put the lever in third gear. Now (while in third gear) and the turnbuckle tightened up, move the lever side to side for even play. If it moves further to one side or the other, you need to adjust the "twist" on the shifter rod.

    Move the lever to second gear ( to access the front nut on the turnbuckle under the car ) and loosen the nut with one wrench while holding the turnbuckle with another wrench. Depending on which direction you have too much play, adjust the "twist" in the shift rod to the opposite. You are moving the turnbuckle with a wrench in such super small adjustments...it will drive you nuts. It took me hours over a few days to get the feel for it. ( never did say I knew what I was doing :D )

    The turnbuckle has a nut on either side of it. To adjust the shift lever side to side play, you are adjusting the turnbuckle and nut towards the front of the car. The turnbuckle to the rear nut (towards back of car ) is tightened.

    BUT....I know have the shift lever with the exact....I mean exact amount of side to side play. While the engine is off, the gear lever slides so well into every gear and like Rifledriver stated, not just in gear order.

    Still can't shift with the engine running....:(


    Shamile

    Freeze....Miami Vice !
     
  15. carguy

    carguy F1 Rookie

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    #15 carguy, Jun 28, 2009
    I guess I would try bleeding the the clutch. Air in the system will certainly reduce the throw out bearing travel, and prevent complete disengagement.....and that could cause shifting problems.
     
  16. lasvegascop

    lasvegascop Karting

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    #16 lasvegascop, Jun 28, 2009
    I agree....and another possibility is that your spacers are not there or were placed in the wrong order. Plain and simple, this is it, no other solutions my friend. Take the bell housing off, take the clutch off and put it back together with the spacers under not over....That's after you bled the clutch. There is NO other fixes or things that need adjustment unless your synchros are fried? But that's in more depth than the first two and that's where I would start if I were ya!

    Ski
     
  17. lasvegascop

    lasvegascop Karting

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    #17 lasvegascop, Jun 28, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    This is the way it's supposed to look like. The spacer is supposed to be under the "leaf" not over it. I had it over and I couldn't shift either. In this picture, all six spacers are on the threaded studs. This is what it should look like just prior to placing the second clutch plate and pressure plate.The clutch plate was rubbing on the fly wheel. Now everything is perfect with shifting and driving.

    Ski
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  18. portogts

    portogts Formula 3
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    #18 portogts, Jun 28, 2009
    Hi,
    i am also having issues with shifting , are you sure about the position of the spacers ? They should be under the leaf?
     
  19. lasvegascop

    lasvegascop Karting

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    #19 lasvegascop, Jun 28, 2009
    I am 100% sure. How? Because I put it the other way around when I replaced the clutch and I couldnt shift either! I had to remove the whole assembly and reinstall it with the spacers under. If the spacers are over the first clutch plate will be constantly rubbing the fly wheel therefore spinning the tranny and the synchros will have a hard time synchronizing the gears to "jump" into the desired gear.

    If you replaced the clutch and having hard time shifting it could be air in the clutch line? Spacers are installed wrong? Shifter out of adjustment (but I personally think that this would be a problem before clutch replacement NOT right after) or your (more expensive and involved) synchros are out of wack!

    I think you can check the spacers thru an inspection hole in the bell housing? Dont quote me on this cause I didnt look specifically for the spacers but I know you can see alot thru that hole hahahah

    Ski
     
  20. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran

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    #20 Shamile, Jun 28, 2009
    Dear Ferraristi,

    Thanks Vegas,

    I think my spacers were fine like your second pix.

    I did pull the bell housing yesterday down to the flywheel. Like I said, I was hoping for something broken or something foreign messing things up....nope, all looks well.

    I'll keep at it :)


    Shamile

    Freeze...Miami Vice!
     
  21. Exclusivemotors

    Exclusivemotors Rookie

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    #21 Exclusivemotors, Jan 26, 2015
    So I've finished the engine out service. All went well except for 1 thing. The shift linkage is all messed up now. When I put it into first gear nothing happens. When I go into second the car goes backwards and when I go into third it seems to be in 1st gear. I can't seem to properly adjust it. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
     
  22. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Veteran
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    #22 ago car nut, Jan 26, 2015
    Do a search on here: Ago car nut. I believe I posted with the same problem on here
     
  23. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

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    #23 turbo-joe, Jan 26, 2015
    this is only an adjustment problem

    so short way to fix it:
    put in the gearbox the 2nd gear, loosen the linkage, put also the shiftlever into the 2nd gear and tighten the adjustment screw
    normaly it works then
    may be it needs after this a small readjustment also. best would be to do this job with 2 people
     
  24. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Veteran
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    #24 ago car nut, Jan 27, 2015
    Roman,

    Jack the back of the car up, both wheels together and put on jack stands. You want it very secure. Do as Joe says and put lever in 2nd gear. The problem is there is very side to side movement to get it correct. I used a mirror on the rear wheel while I tried the shifting still up on jack stands motor running. I kept getting reverse going for second. You have to play with the side to side to get it from not going into reverse when it is not supposed to. The side to side movement on the transmission end is a very small adjustment.

    Dave
     
  25. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran

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    #25 Shamile, Jan 28, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Ferraristi,

    OK, I agree with the above posts but let's back up a bit. It sounds like you don't have the selector on the transmission side lined up properly.

    Jack car up on stands, be safe, wear condoms..opps ;) Seriously, put the car up on four stands. Get under the car with your feet facing towards the back of the car.

    Where the shift shaft goes into the coupling at the transmission, remove the shaft. You should just have the selector casting with the silent block rubber bushing in your hands now. When the selector is straight ( hole at 12 and 6 o'clock) that is gear 2/3. If you angle the selector towards the driver side, that's R/1 and to the passenger side is 4/5.

    Make sure the selector moves freely from side to side and position in the center 2/3 Position the gated shift tower in 2nd. Before you reattach the shift shaft back, loosen the turnbuckle. This will allow the two halves of the shift shaft to align to the silent block on the gated shift tower and the silent block on the transmission side gear selector. Make sure the transmission side has not angled to either sided. Now tighten slowly. This aligns the selector on the transmission side to the gated shift.

    You will need to wind the turnbuckle in as the gear lever will move from second to neutral. The second gear positioning is to align your side to side. The selector on the transmission side is still in neutral. Just make sure you have free spinning rear tires so you know it's in neutral.

    ...free spinning by hand, not with the engine running!

    I hope this helps.

    Shamile

    Freeze....Miami Vice!
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