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Shifting Problem With First Gear Only

Discussion in '308/328' started by TargaFlorio, Dec 30, 2013.

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  1. TargaFlorio

    TargaFlorio Rookie

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    #1 TargaFlorio, Dec 30, 2013
    I'd like to ask if anyone else has ever had the problem I've had. I can't imagine that it's never cropped up before? The problem is first gear only. When you pull the gear-shift lever all the way left and then down into first gear, it will go in the gate but the gearbox will not actually be in gear? Twice, I've had it adjusted in the shop to where it's perfect but as soon as I get out on the road, the problem persists?

    1986 328 GTSi, 40K miles.
     
  2. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #2 Steve Magnusson, Dec 30, 2013
    Did you have the two flexible bushings in the shifting linkage checked/replaced (before the adjustment attempts)?
     
  3. TargaFlorio

    TargaFlorio Rookie

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    #3 TargaFlorio, Dec 30, 2013
    Steve! Thank you for the response! If you mean the shifter box/gate up in the driver's compartment, that's all free, intact and lubed up. (I've had that all apart and checked it out; everything seems fine.) It's just strange that the problem is first gear only?
     
  4. johnhunt

    johnhunt Formula Junior

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    #4 johnhunt, Dec 31, 2013
    Happens to mine as well. Have to engage 2nd before I can get it in to first.

    John
    78 308gts
     
  5. st@ven

    st@ven F1 Rookie

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    #5 st@ven, Dec 31, 2013
    Actually it is not so strange. The fork dailing the three positions ( 1,R/2,3/4,5) is highly sensitive for misalingment. When i adjusted a small misalingment in the gate i lost first gear. Readjusting called for removal of the sumpcover but was an easy fix
     
  6. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #6 Steve Magnusson, Dec 31, 2013
    No, not the shifter box (which is a fairly precise rigid mechanical assembly) -- rather the two flexible items 28 "Silentbloc" shown here:

    Ferrari 308GTB/GTS Parts : Table 28 - OUTSIDE GEARBOX CONTROLS

    These can give "one-direction" trouble -- the angular twisting action being properly transmitted going from the 2-3 middle position to the 4-5 side, but not OK going to the R-1 side. Just something to make sure are OK before attempting a readjustment.
     
  7. st@ven

    st@ven F1 Rookie

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    #7 st@ven, Dec 31, 2013
    You're absolutely right but i thought the op was sure this primaire systeem was all oke
     
  8. TargaFlorio

    TargaFlorio Rookie

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    #8 TargaFlorio, Dec 31, 2013
    Thank you, both Steve's and everyone else, we'll look into those recommendations.
    I better just order those two flexible bushings to eliminate the possibility since they are often the culprit.
     
  9. TargaFlorio

    TargaFlorio Rookie

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    #9 TargaFlorio, Jan 9, 2014
    Update on "Shifting Problem With First Gear only"

    ...'Instead of just keeping to myself, I wanted to come back on here and say what needed to be said and acknowledged.

    Although it might be a little embarrassing to admit that I've had this same problem for going on 3+ years, the fact is, that I have. So, it wasn't until the previous few weeks that I finally decided to come on FerrariChat and pose the question.

    Well, 45 minutes after I posted, Steve Magnusson came on and recommended a plausible explanation/fix. I immediately took that advice and went and bought the recommended parts. I set up another appt. with my mechanic and we tackled the job again. (me getting in the driver's seat and my mechanic laying underneath the open gear box to adjust the shifting mechanism.)

    As soon as the new "silentbloc" bushings were installed in the shifting shafts, my mechanic got back underneath the car and noticed that there was no more "twisting" of the shifting linkage. 'Problem solved; ongoing headache over!

    The bushing closest to the gearbox is constantly under load when the car is in gear plus it's close to exhaust heat. Also, you really can't even see the culpable bushing because it's above a cross-member in the frame.

    Bottom line: Thank you, Steve Magnusson.
     
  10. PT 328

    PT 328 F1 Rookie
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    #10 PT 328, Jan 9, 2014
    The knowledge that Steve has is utterly amazing. I believe that is he a long time Master Ferrari Mechanic posing as an engineer. :)
     
  11. maurice70

    maurice70 F1 Rookie

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    #11 maurice70, Jan 9, 2014
    Totally agreed,Steve has always offered his knowledgeable input without hesitation.
     
  12. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #12 Steve Magnusson, Jan 11, 2014
    Glad that you got it sorted (and what a negative flaw in the Driving Experience to endure for so long), but many of the regulars here could've identified those flexible bushings as likely suspects in the food chain from the gearbox lever to the gearbox internals as it's a common design used on many F models -- so gets reported often. And especially after repeated readjustment attempts that seem to "change" or shifting behavior that still seems random/erratic (if it was adjusted wrong, and everything was in good mechanical shape, it should generally stay wrong).

    After ~30 years, it is probably no sin to replace those bushings, even if they were still OKish, but I'd discourage anyone from buying parts without making some sort of inspection or check to verify things. Many F problems have a usual suspect to blame, but, only in rare cases, can there be absolute certainty justifying a parts purchase just from a described symptom.
     
  13. Brian Harper

    Brian Harper F1 Rookie
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    #13 Brian Harper, Jan 12, 2014
    It should be noted that those bushings are also available in Delrin from Verrell through Unobtaium Supply. They will provide amore precise feel probably for a longer time. I haven't tried his bushings but I did make an aluminum version of my own for my GT4 and I didn't notice any ill effects not having rubber isolation.
     
  14. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    #14 Verell, Jan 17, 2014
    More info about the Delrin shift bushings here:
    Unobtainium Supplies: Delrin Shift Bushings - FerrariChat.com
    While I agree with Steve about not buying parts 'just in case', an exception is that if you are changing the shift shaft seals & the silentbloc is an OEM style that hasn't been replaced in 5 or more years, I do recommend replacing it.

    Of course I recommend my chemical, wear, & heat resistant Delrin(tm) ones.;^)
     
  15. johnhunt

    johnhunt Formula Junior

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    #15 johnhunt, Jan 17, 2014
    Can you replace these and the protective boots and seals without risk to changing the shift alignment?
     
  16. TargaFlorio

    TargaFlorio Rookie

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    #16 TargaFlorio, Jan 19, 2014
    John, All I know that is when we (my expert mechanic and I) replaced just the one silentbloc bushing closest to the engine and all the heat, that was the "miracle" cure. No further adjustments were needed. And yet, the car would not go into first gear before this.
    I'd like to also ad, the OEM silentbloc needed to be "shaved" down to fit in between the clevis portion of the shifter shaft.

    I would like to further comment on the factory's OEM silentbloc bushings. Not only are they very expensive to fabricate and make, I feel that they are so unnecessary. I wish that I had known about Verell's bushings when I was experiencing my problems. And I'll explain why. Years ago, in a racing application, we were using motor mounts that utilized a similar design with rubber mounts, sandwiched in between thick aluminum 'washers.' Finally, after these mounts continued to fail, everyone switched over to a "solid" motor mount and the problems were solved. And this appears to be what Verell did with the silentbloc.

    Bottom line: I think the factory out-engineered themselves on the silentblocs.
     
  17. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    #17 Verell, Jan 19, 2014
    John,
    If you only change the shift bushing & rubber boot, then as Targaflorio says, no readjustment should be needed.

    To change the shift shaft seals you have to remove the shift shaft.
    That requires removing both sump covers, and removing the fork from the end of the shift shaft.

    While there is a groove on the shift shaft that aligns the fork's thru-bolt. The groove gets the bolt either spot on, or very close, so you aren't dealing with a big complex alignment project. It's actually pretty easy to do, but does require a 2nd person to work the gearshift while you verify operation.

    There are several good threads on Fchat about how to change the shift shaft seals.

    You only disconnect the 'clevis', DO NOT loosen the hex turnbuckle or you will have a major adjustment sequence on your hands.
     
  18. johnhunt

    johnhunt Formula Junior

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    #18 johnhunt, Jan 21, 2014
    that apply to the forward boot as well? I have a tear in mine.
     
  19. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    #19 Verell, Jan 22, 2014
    If by forward boot you mean the one on the shift shaft where it comes out of the oil sump, then yes, the boot can be changed w/o removing the shift shaft, hence readjustment should not be required.

    CAVEAT: Make sure the tranny is in 2nd gear when you do this, and DO NOT rotate the shift shaft. Otherwise you may end up having to pull the trans. sump cover to get the shift shaft back into the correct position.
     

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