Should be an interesting week...

Thank you.

 

Tony.
Picked up my copy from Hortons this morning. They have 9 copies left. Mike Horton told me that they had only recently reduced their order from 20 down to 10 copies, due to lack of demand ! (Ben is still in the U.S.)

There are some gorgeous photos of Jim's car in there, and the magazine IM(H)O is worth it* for these alone, but as Jim says, the article is very non-committal, either way, and almost borders on, dare I say, scepticism in places. It will be very interesting to see what Cavallino and Forza (both of which are also distributed by Hortons) have to say on the matter, if and when the other articles are published - particularly Cavallino - in the light of Jim's recent reluctance to reply to direct questions from Michael Lynch on AtlasF1

*Hortons charged me SEVEN QUID for my copy (collecting it myself, so you can add postage on top of that). That's compared to a US RRP of $6.95. A bit steep, I thought. They're certainly not the cheapest. I can remember a few years back when I was looking for a copy of the Firestone 330P4 pamphlet. Ben Horton first showed me a copy at Silverstone Historic Festival. It was, shall we say - less than perfect. They wanted £600 for it. A few months later, I picked up a mint copy on eBay for $450. But - if you want a copy of VM quickly - they've got stock, and like I said, it's worth it for the photos alone.

Beautiful car, Jim. Despite what I may have said regarding it's provenance and originality, in the past - a beautiful car. That's undeniable. I hope one day to be able to see it in the flesh myself - whatever the outcome of the '#0846 Saga'.

 

Lee.
It's a shame that you didn't cut and paste all of my quote from AtlasF1. Yes, I was pretty livid when I wrote it.

For those of you who don't know the background, while I was banned from FChat for a month, I started following threads (not just Ferrari P4 stuff either - I'm interested in all sorts of other 60's racecars) in Atlas F1. There were a couple of P4-related threads, so naturally I replied (belatedly) to a couple of posts. Then 'Macca' and Jim got involved in the '0846 debate' on AtlasF1, and as usual it spiralled out of control (only with some different major league players involved this time).

But, despite this, the thread developed quite nicely, and there was a good mix of #0844/#0846/#0856 and P4 replica stuff in there, including lots of photos. Therein lies the problem. AtlasF1 is absolutely paranoid about copyright infringement. Whereas (assuming you haven't exceeded your 5MB limit), you can post virtually any image you like on Fchat, on Atlas they require you to get permission from the copyright owner (then you have to host the photos elsewhere). Anyway, I screwed up, and inadvertantly posted one, or possibly two photos copyrighted to the Klementaski Collection. I had a PM from Peter Sachs, and the two posts that included these photos were deleted. No warning. They just did it. Fair enough, I thought. But the following evening, I went back through the previous four pages looking for something, and realised that a few other of my posts containing photos had mysteriously disappeared.

Not only that, but most other people's posts that had included photos had also gone. They've pretty much trashed the earlier part of the thread in doing this, and so far no-one has owned up to it - except for the forum moderator, Don Capps, who categorically said it wasn't him ! Whinge, whinge, whinge.

As I said, I was pretty mad at the time when I made that post. But despite my relative criticism of FChat, in that post, regarding the IM(H)O, space-wasting 'post whores' and the A$$-licking that goes on, what I did forget to write in favour of Fchat, is ....

That despite temporary bans; threads being locked down, and given the contentious nature of many of the posts I have made in the past (and also some by other posters that I personally thought SHOULD have been deleted), I give Rob, Wayne et al their due, I have never seen any posts deleted - for whatever reason. Thank you, Guys ....

 

Jim.
Cabianca on AtlasF1 = Michael T. Lynch. Remember ? There are also a few other 'big guns' on there hiding behind pseudonyms.

Not sure if the post(s) is actually still there. They really did a 'hatchet job' on the thread, when they edited out the posts with photos. It doesn't make for such straightforward reading any more. I'm a bit pissed about it.

By the way - despite our differences, I will be placing orders for the issues of Cavallino and Forza with your car in.

 

1) Napolis, forgive me for asking, but is that your daughter in that pic i keep seeing!? Wow!

2) P4Replica i saved every pic in every P4 post on fchat and atlas f1. any specific pic you are looking for? my file is huge , so its not like i can " find " them at the drop of a hat. cheers, 'REAPER

 

posted by P4Replica:

Hortons are the most expensive of the motor-racing book dealers; they seal all their stock in clingfilm so you can't browse, and try to charge the earth for anything out-of-print. Chater & Scott of Isleworth also stock VM, charge list price, have a superb shop, and will be at the Goodwood Revival in two weeks time.............where you might like to go to see REAL (within the meaning of the act) classic racing cars.

Actually it developed in quite a polite and scholarly way until someone used phrases like:
P4R:-
"A lot more straight-forward than that of the 'alleged #0846' that has recently been 'resurrected' in the USA, Wilfried !"

"Originally posted by Macca:-
'Barchetta can be wrong; the 250P5 didn't use the chassis of #0846'
------------------------------------------------------------------
P4R:-
True. But neither did the car that David Piper sold to James Glickenhaus in 2000,
(that is currently being claimed to be the 'resurrected', or should I say 'restored' #0846). "


by P4R
"IMHO (although strictly not 100% correct), a glorious reproduction of a Ferrari 330P4 berlinetta.
Probably (in fact, almost certainly) - The BEST P4 replica in the World !"


"by JG: 'when you have not personally examined the forensic evidence that show's that it very well may be and are aware that a claim has been made that it does and that Ferrari S.P.A is aware of this evidence and is in the process of futher investigating this evidence as you have been told several times prior to your making the above statement continues to show a reckless disregard for the truth.'
--------------------------------------------------------
by P4R
The 'truth' Jim ? And what 'forensic evidence' ? Despite all the dozens of posts on 'FerrariChat', claiming unequivocally that your car IS #0846, no-one (on Ferrarichat), to the best of my knowledge, has been privileged to see any such evidence to substantiate your claims, nor the supporting documentation.

I would be very careful, if I were you Jim, as to the claims that you make for your undeniably beautiful 'Ferrari 330P4 reproduction' on THIS forum. It does not (as does FerrariChat) appear to be populated by 'Yes Men', and would-be lawyers. Having read a good number of threads now, Atlas F1 would appear (to me) to have many knowledgeable contributors, including the well-known and respected Ferrari historian Doug Nye. One wouldn't want to leave themselves open to ridicule in such revered company, would one ? "



So I'll leave it to you guys to judge for yourselves................

Paul M

 

Here's a first. Speechless Speedy.


Erich
learning to be a post whore like Speedy

 

Jim, what's the best day for Lime Rock? Monday?

 

Paul S, regarding my previous post:
"Hortons are the most expensive of the motor-racing book dealers; they seal all their stock in clingfilm so you can't browse, and try to charge the earth for anything out-of-print. Chater & Scott of Isleworth also stock VM, charge list price, have a superb shop, and will be at the Goodwood Revival in two weeks time............."


Chater & Scott also stock 'Forza', and keep the back-numbers of Forza, Vintage Motorsport and Cavallino. Have you got VM for May/June 2001, and Forza no. 49 for Nov.2003, both of which have articles on c/n 0844? Also Cavallino no. 100 has the article by Mauro Forghieri on the genesis of the P4.


Paul M

 

Macca.
You don't need to tell me about Hortons being expensive, thanks. I know it, and tend to avoid going there, even though they are literally only 5 minutes down the road from me - simply for that very reason. Three years ago, Ben told me about a 1:43 model collection that they had purchased, that included some hand-built (BBR) P4's. I went up there and had a look, but the prices they were asking for individual models were ridiculous. I've since bought most of them on eBay. Again, there was that Firestone 330P4 pamphlet that they were asking £600 for, that I quoted earlier, which I found a better copy of on eBay for half the price. But having said that, when I phoned on Saturday, and Mike said he had the Sept/Oct issue of VM in (already), I shot up there, and paid their asking price.
Then spent the best part of Saturday afternoon drooling over the photos of Jim's car!

Yes - I know about Chater's thanks, and have used them in the past. Nowadays, I tend to buy my hardbacks from Mill House Books, and back issues of magazines like Cavallino by whatever means - often as not eBay.
Yes thanks, I have the VM 2001/3 magazine with the #0844 article. It's really just a (slight) re-hash of the February 2001 Auto Italia article, which, again this time without any editing, but a different selection of photos, re-appeared yet again the Spring 2002 (issue 133) UK Ferrari Owners Club magazine. Tony Dron certainly got his money's worth out of that drive ! (The first article he penned from it was in the Telegraph Motoring Supplement on 23rd December 2000). I don't have the Forza #49 article, but it would be interesting to know how different it is from the preceding.
I've got the Cavallino #100 Forghieri 330P4 issue thanks. (Did you spot the miscaptioning of #0846 as #0858 in one of the B&W photos ?) Have you got Cavallino #55 from 1990 with the 4-page article by Michael Sheehan on #0854 ? There's also a 3-page article in Cavallino #15 (from 1982) on the P4's at the BOAC 500.
In case you're wondering, I keep all of this stuff in a 'P4 bibliography' - it's the only way of remembering what references I do have to hand - and to prevent myself buying multiple copies ! One day, when this '#0846 saga' is over, maybe you and I can 'bury the hatchet' (and not in each other's backs), and trade some of this obviously useful information we both have to hand.

 

Paul.
I note that you subtly removed your snide remark from the last quote
In fact, I won't be at the Goodwood Revival. Got Neil Foreman's open day this weekend (you know - the field full of fake Ferrari P4's thing). Then C&SC Action Day at Castle Combe, and the See Red festival at Donington (P3/4 #0844 will be racing) on the weekend of 11/12th September. Can't be doing 'car stuff' EVERY weekend

 

Paul,
Yes, I've got Cavallino #55 but not #15. Classic & Sports Car did an article on 0850 in June 2001 which I assume you've got, also Motor Sport did an article on 0854 in April 1997. Doug Nye did an article on the P4s in the Dec 24th/31st 1981 issue of Autosport, and another article sometime about the 'P' cars generally, apart from the 'Profile' booklet.

The article in Forza #49 was by Paul Jansen, the car's history and then talking to Peter Hardman rather than driving it himself. I agree that Dron certainly got his money's worth out of that one test-drive of 0844, from the Telegraph onwards!

Ah, you noticed my little dig! I'd never miss Goodwood, even for a track day, but sadly I'm going to have to miss Donington - as you say, can't manage to have every weekend with cars.

Paul M

 

Finally saw a copy of the mag that started this thread Great pics but i was hoping for a more in-depth write up.When will the Forza article be published, pls?

 

There are a lot of posers and poofters writing for car magazines today. The vast majority of writers are simply that; they are NOT automotive historians, nor were most of them around when these cars were built and ran.

A lot of the stories in many of these magazines are really nothing more than a disguised advertisement!

If you want tro check out what some real historians think of most automotive magazines today, check out some of the threads in the Atlas Nostalga Forum.

Buy the way, the issue of Vintage Motorsport with the 846 article has already disappeared for quite a few newstands in the Los Angeles area, so if you want a copy, don't wait!

 

Thanks

 

Thank you for the tip. I'm a lurker on Atlas already! I bought the mag y'day for the princely sum of £7 or $12.60 ! Now that's daylight robbery

 

Guess you must have purchased it from Horton's then, like me Tony - See my post #77 on the previous page.

 

Jim Sitz is the historical editor of vinatge motorsport, and a guy that knows his stuff. He first went to Europe at 17 years old.

Of course, one can not know everything about everything. When it comes to a specific subject Jim knows little about, such as specific things about Alfas, he will call people like myself or Simon Moore....or with something like Indy cars, he will call Bob Schilling.....and Jim is mainly known as a photographer, rather than a writer..

Jim didn't write the 846 story, and I don't even know if the publisher wanted him to see it before it was published. As I'm sure you are aware, sometimes publishers want a writer to jump on a hot topic without an editor even seeing the article

If the English Ferrari club wants to buy copies of VM directly, rather than pay somthing like $12 each for copies, I'm sure something can be arranged.

 

Paul,
yes, they had a big stand @ Goodwood.

 

Thanks once again for the info. I'm sure there would be a big interest in buying this mag at less than £7 from UK Ferrari owners'. Is this something that has to arranged via an official club?