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Should I be concerned?

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by thehick, Jul 21, 2018.

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  1. thehick

    thehick Karting
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    Apr 18, 2006
    139
    VA
    I recently did an oil test with Blackstone Labs. Not sure if anyone has any idea if this is an issue or just noise. What are your thoughts?


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  2. StuR

    StuR Formula Junior

    Jun 14, 2005
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    Looks good. What caused you to do this, any issues with the car, compression, valve timing or visual inspection worry or anything?

    I note they suggest a quick 1k miles, can take some people a while.

    Out of interest, how much does this cost?


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  3. flash32

    flash32 Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
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    Did you take sample at the very beginning or end .. if the fluid slowly drips out it may have taken some if the crush washer residue with it

    Just a thought

    I would monitor it and possibly change the brand you using to see if that helps too

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  4. thehick

    thehick Karting
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    No issues. Just thought it would be prudent to do periodically. It costs ~ $30
     
  5. thehick

    thehick Karting
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    I took it from the dry sump while running after the oil came up to temp from a drive.
     
  6. StuR

    StuR Formula Junior

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    Never considered getting analysis like that (in UK) as I presumed the cost to be prohibitive. How long had the oil been in / miles (sorry if I missed that info)


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  7. flash32

    flash32 Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
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    Ok .. for some reason I did not catch that .. I thought this was at oil change

    I have aeen slightly elevated copper in 512 trs due to oil radiators starting to shed some of their copper .. not sure what our coolers/ radiators for the 430 is made of

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  8. thehick

    thehick Karting
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    2500 miles
     
  9. StuR

    StuR Formula Junior

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    Yeah, just saw that on the report heading, wasn’t sure if that was their’s or real data. I guess it’s a good excuse to do a quick 1K and retest and then flush and oil change for some more? Meanwhile, get the cam covers off and have an inspection if you are concerned at all... I’d do the next 1K first.


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  10. energy88

    energy88 F1 World Champ
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    Is the 2/27/2016 column data yours also? It might be a different brand/formulation than the Motul 8100 as I notice that many of the "additives" and reported properties are quite a bit different to the May 2018 analysis.
     
  11. thehick

    thehick Karting
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    It
    It was. The previous oil change was at the dealer, who used Shell Helix oil.
     
  12. Wade

    Wade Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I'd go with their recommendation i.e. sample again after another 1000 miles if you're still concerned. Oil analysis such as these are but a snapshot, whereas multiple samples can identity trends.

    However, snapshot samples are helpful when coupled with other issues (e.g. suspected bearing noise).
     
  13. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    how many months did over the 2500 miles?
     
  14. thehick

    thehick Karting
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    About 3 months
     
  15. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    6,416
    The real question to me is what oil was that?

    Both Phosphorus and Zinc are low should be in the 1100 range not 900 range.
    Oil seems to be a bit thin, too!
     
  16. todd6363

    todd6363 Formula Junior

    Jan 20, 2007
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    Thought that also, but didn't want to get an oil choice thread started !

    Brad Penn oil analysis 1500 ppm Phosphorus/1500 ppm Zink range consistently over the past 15 years for me.
     
  17. johnk...

    johnk... F1 Veteran
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    Jun 11, 2004
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    So what's the point? Car runs fine, no CELS, you use the manufacture's specified oil or equivalent and change at required intervals. You do an oil analysis on the old oil and what does it tell you, something is wrong with the engine? What would you do about it? In this case the report said copper looked a little high. What would/could you do about it? Seems like closing the barn door after the cows got out. I can see doing an analysis on the fresh oil to see if it is acceptable, or on old oil after an engine failure, but what is the point of doing one, just because? Can someone explain? Been driving 55 years. All types of cars, high performance, low performance, trucks, Ferrairs.... Never had an oil related failure and some vehicles driven close to 200k miles. Never had any oil analyzed. Don't know anyone who has had such. Seems like just another thing to make you paranoid.
     
  18. flash32

    flash32 Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
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    The reason I do an analysis is to see how the oil made out .. was it a waste to change it .. meaning anaylsis showed that it had a lot of life on it or was it time to change. It also can show a problem that if not taken care of may cost more in the long run. For example ..f you start to see anitfeeeze in the oil maybe you research further etc

    And honestly I do like to keep a copy if the analysis in my maintenance folder

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  19. voicey

    voicey Formula 3

    Jul 29, 2009
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    I wouldn't get too excited about seeing 17ppm copper right now but given your trend (from only two data points mind) is upwards I would heed their advice and re-sample after 1k miles. I've just let a 430 go out with 21ppm lead and 18ppm copper - we'll be taking another sample in 500 miles as we don't have any previous data points.

    If you wanted something to do now then check the end float - in almost all the 360 engines I have stripped down the thrust washers have been showing copper. If the copper continues to rise then you'll need to take the sump off (which in a 360 is pretty trivial). Just note that you'll need new bolts for any big ends you remove as they are one time use only.
     
  20. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Rookie
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    Could the copper wear be because of thrust from FF transmission?
     
  21. smg2

    smg2 F1 Veteran
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    Oil related failures do indeed happen and when they do they tend to be quite spectacular. 90% of the time it's related to oil pressure vs viscosity break down. Sampling the oil helps spot issues before they get out of control, is there a part suffering from mechanical failure? is it due to the oil or some other issue? oil is the backbone of support in keeping all the moving parts moving, debris or viscosity breakdown will cause a failure, and since it's going to be a long trend one monitoring the oil over time will give one a heads up something is not right. It's one of many diagnostics to use. Most engines don't have any problems, a few do though, however the way to look at it is like a check up, it's inexpensive monitoring and very helpful if in the future the engine is running oddly and the oil report is saying 'XYZ' is not right.. then it's time to really look into what the problem might be before it takes out the entire engine and costs a small fortune to repair.

    Tribology is a field into itself and the oil reports need to be looked at thru that lense, so for most shops and DIY's they can be confusing or lead to miss-understandings, It's helpful that blackstone puts in a informative paragraph to help out the customer, but ultimately it's up the customer to know how to read and understand the report.
     
  22. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    6,416
    In an F355, the first gear in the tranny (the drop gear) is supported on both sides by bearings, that appear to be deep groove ball bearings, which, in theory, should prevent almost all of the thrust from getting out of the tranny.

    I don't know about 360 tranny.
     
  23. jcurry

    jcurry F1 World Champ
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    ^^^ this
     

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