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Should we be worried about keeping our cars on the road in the future?

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by Bluebottle, Jan 14, 2021.

  1. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Brian Crall
    Self inflicted wound. Elect better politicians or move away from socialisim.
     
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  3. EastMemphis

    EastMemphis Formula Junior
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    May 25, 2019
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    I truly expect that I'll be able to drive an ICE vehicle legally on the road in 2035. Now, the bigger question is am I going to still be able? I don't believe the US has the will to unilaterally ban all ICE vehicles ever. There's going to be exemptions, just like there is for everything else. It will cost more but at least they can still be enjoyed.
     
  4. Bluebottle

    Bluebottle F1 Veteran
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    Oct 15, 2012
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    Cyclists are the new Fascists. They happily break the law - ignoring red lights, going the wrong way down one way streets, riding on pavements, etc., etc. - and then get all self-righteous about car drivers. And if there is an accident involving a cyclist and a car, it is automatically presumed that the car driver is at fault and the onus is on him to prove otherwise. They even have parts of the roads reserved for their use, yet they pay no road tax. And we get a constant barrage of advertisements telling us to be considerate to cyclists!

    As an occasional visitor to London, I am all in favour of the congestion charge - for a modest cost, I get to drive on (relatively) traffic-free roads. My only complaint is that it is not extensive enough.
     
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  5. franschman

    franschman Karting

    Dec 18, 2017
    182
    Holland
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    Bart Boosman
    I don't think it's a simple left or right issue. No one wants to breathe diesel when they live in a crowded city, left nor right. The best result you can get with this (or indeed any) difficult issue is a good compromise that everyone can live with.
    I'm from Holland; in our country everyone has a pushbike which is by far the most practical and fastest way of local commuting. Also for bringing the kids to school or getting groceries. We don't often have snow, though. Amsterdam has long banned diesel taxies in favor for electrical, which I think is a good thing as their engines ran continuously whether they had a passenger or not, polluting the city with unnecessary NOx and soot particles. Also, most busses and other public transport are LPG powered or electric. Gas prices in Holland are amongst the highest in Europe (artificially, by high taxes), encouraging people to buy economical cars and discourage the use of cars in general. There is something to say for this, as you only pay tax for your guzzler when you actually use it. Obviously we car-owners do complain about these high prices, even though we see that other taxing systems are possibly even worse.

    Interestingly, the recent pandemic has decimated public transport volume to the point where services have had to be cancelled while the number of second hand car sales has rocketed. One wonders how long that effect continues after we've all been vaccinated.
     
  6. Themaven

    Themaven F1 Rookie
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    It does depend to an extent on your location. Ask someone who lives in Paris or Florence or Bangkok, and they may likely be all in favour of reducing car numbers to reduce roadside pollution. In much of the US, and parts of Europe, that’s much less of an issue.

    People do confuse roadside pollution (an issue for me, in central London, though I own 4 cars) and CO2 emissions. There are lots of ways of emitting CO2, of being carbon positive. Different to roadside pollution, particulates and NOX.

    My kids went to primary school here, and the road leading to the school has just banned ICE cars during school pick up and drop off times. I am thinking simultaneously, how can they do that; it’s good they have done that because pollution from idling cars dropping off was thick and noticeable; I am glad they didn’t do that while my kids were there otherwise I couldn’t have dropped them off (sometimes in my Ferraris); I wish they had done that when my kids were there so they would have had better air.

    contradictory beliefs.

    so it’s not simple or easy. The council which did this is indeed a left wing one, and I am no socialist, but it’s not just a matter of politics. That would be too easy.
     
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  8. papou

    papou Formula 3
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    Cyclists with there modern attire skintight outfits, safety helmet, water bottles, the bike itself tires, all or most of the materials to produce
    them are 90% sourced from petroleum,
     
  9. root

    root Karting
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    Nov 28, 2012
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    Bay Area, Ca
    I think the tipping point will be reached when car makers start making more money from sales and service of EVs than from ICE vehicles. They will push for more regulations to favor electric cars like they did in the first half of the last century when they lobbied and incentivized local governments to rip out electric powered street cars in favor of diesel powered buses that they produced. Don't know what are the current profit margins on EVs vs. ICE, but the gap must be closing aided by advancements in technology and material sciences and regulations. So the issue is technological, commercial and political with an environmental wrap.
     
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  10. F456M

    F456M F1 Rookie
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    Diesel smoke is terrible!! All lorries and trucks should be gas powered!!
     
  11. Bluebottle

    Bluebottle F1 Veteran
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    And look ridiculous!:D

    I would prefer this look:

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    or maybe this:

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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  13. Fennicus

    Fennicus Formula Junior

    Apr 10, 2015
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    Pekka T.
    I thought politics were not allowed on these forums?

    IMO we (the EU) are way better off regarding pretty much everything than the USA. Besides you do not know what "socialism" means. We (in Finland) have seen it from a very close distance and know what it is and know how to avoid it (and we even went to war to avoid it!). A working government and an organized society is not socialism although I know some of you obviously disagree and think that all taxes, all public services, schools, healthcare etc and anything "federal" in general is all "socialism. It's not. Socialism is a society where companies and factories are state managed and state owned and basically everything is owned and controlled by state. Laws and taxes are just ways to democratically guide and influence the economy and necessary public services to all citizens.

    After all "what have the Romans ever done for us?"
    First things that come to mind are that our society offers free education, free healthcare, and a social security system, and it's not imprisoning a large portion of the population, defense is based on conscription (compulsory military service) and I don't know a better place to live in,.

    So no, I am not moving and yes, I will vote in every election, the next one is just a few months away. We have a very left wing prime minister at the moment and I don't agree with any of her economic views at all, but I still think she's doing a pretty good job. (But I could never ever vote her party, or any of the other social democratic ones.)

    In this thread I am more concerned about Ferrari S.p.A deliberately discontinuing spare parts being made by subcontractors for cars that are barely over 15-25 years old, than any government in the EU banning the use of combustion engines on public roads. It will not happen that fast and there will always be exceptions. Like I wrote I just got a FIVA pass for the 1975 XJ6C, no big deal.

    And remember which country all Ferraris come from?

    I don't think they will ban these cars either.

    Cheers!
     
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  14. Bluebottle

    Bluebottle F1 Veteran
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    Yes, but it is very difficult to keep politics out of this conversation.

    That is where it started, but it has for good reason, even if not my intention in starting this thread, moved in a different but very relevant direction.

    I dare say we shall be told if we have strayed over the line.
     
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  15. Fennicus

    Fennicus Formula Junior

    Apr 10, 2015
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    Helsinki, Finland
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    Pekka T.
    Hi,

    Me too! (I live in the city centre) This is a very common misconception. If I bike around in town (which I do a lot) I might get shouted by young men in their convertibles for being a "hippie" and "bl**dy left wing liberal" and if I drive somewhere in the V12 E-type or the XJ6C I get angry looks and occasionally also folks try to attack in some way, throw things at you or try to kick the car shouting "bl**dy polluter" or "are you a rich jerk?" etc. Usually I manage to avoid any collisions and for some reason the 1950 Jaguar MKV DHC is odd and weird enough so although it's not exactly low-CO2 it mostly just gets thumbs-up or smiles. :)

    The 456GT being grey (Argento Nürburgring) and not aggressive looking has so far not been a problem, I guess non-car people don't notice it much at all, and car people are, obviously, positively excited. :D

    Cheers!
     
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  16. alex

    alex Formula Junior

    Dec 19, 2003
    323
    Crystal Lake, Illinois
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    Alex
    First of all, congrats on owning an E-Type! It is such a beautiful car! As far as obsolescence, remember that this is going to be an issue with modern cars, to a certain extent, because technology is evolving at such a fast rate. We have a 2013 California, and already the NAV system is obsolete! Luckily that is not an essential item, but it is annoying. On the plus side, many newer models are being produced in fairly large numbers, so spare parts may not be as difficult to find as with older low production models. My advice: enjoy the hell out of your cars now, and don't stress too much about what might or might not happen!
     
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  17. Fennicus

    Fennicus Formula Junior

    Apr 10, 2015
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    Helsinki, Finland
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    Pekka T.
    Hi,

    I do wish they would do something like that over here too, I live and work facing a taxi stand, and still most of them are diesels and they are idling all the time, the amount of soot is incredible (when you clean the windows it's very visible). Actually one of our previous governments, that was more center conservative changed the taxation so that anyone who does a lot of miles (>10.000kms per year) would have a diesel, the purchase taxes on large petrol engines was just terrible. Now the hybrids have changed that so although in many other respects it makes no sens to have a petrol/hybrid that's what most people now buy as new cars, because the taxes are so much lower.

    I've never owned any diesel and we do less than 10.000kms with our currently four old cars, even though we do at least one long Continental tour every year, I am hoping to drive the XJ6C to Goodwood next September. :)

    Cheers!
     
  18. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
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    Aug 10, 2002
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    Electronics aside 3D printing is growing. My 15y/o nephew has a AutoCad lite program and 3D printer and makes parts for his nerf gun hobby. The parts are solid and strong and do things like mount his GoPro to his nerf gun. This is the future of easy parts manufacture as 3d printing gets into printing metals and plastics. In the future it only gets better and cheaper. He is 15. I was never capable of this at 15 nor can I do it now. My daughter an engineer could and did not do this level of design and production until she was a 1st yr in engineering school 8 or so years ago. Technology is moving fast!
     
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  19. Bluebottle

    Bluebottle F1 Veteran
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    Thankyou, you share the good taste of Enzo Ferrari (allegedly;)) when it comes to assessing the beauty of a car.:)

    Funnily enough, my E-type doesn't have a satnav, so it can't become obsolete - one up on your Cali! :D:D

    Seriously, even in those cars that do have one fitted, I use a Tomtom. In my experience, t's better as a satnav in almost all respects than most in-car versions and it gives me speed camera warnings, too, which most in-car satnavs do not. And every 4 years or so, I buy a new, updated version, for a few hundred pounds - cheaper than buying a new car!:)
     
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  20. Laserguru

    Laserguru Formula Junior
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    Aug 7, 2016
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    Eric
    I shall need to adjust my perception of the 456 to now include "stealth".
     
  21. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    Terry H Phillips
    One thing about some parts of Europe you do not see so much here is that many purchases seem to be driven by taxes because taxes can double or triple a purchase price of "luxury goods", especially high end cars. Funds a lot of those "free" benefits.
     
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  22. Themaven

    Themaven F1 Rookie
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    yes or you can stick your phone on the dash with a sticker, Waze is better than any satnav, and that obsolescence issue is solved.

    3D printed parts already work well for classics. But sensors and electronic failures will be a challenge. On my F512M I had to get a sensor designed and built as they didn’t make them anymore, it took a few weeks and cost a bit. Ok for an occasional car but annoying for sure if you want to use your car soon. And that’s a relatively old car.
     
  23. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
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    The cars will be legal but there will be no gas stations. We could convert cars to burn ethanol we can make in our bathtubs like home brew biodiesel. etol might be considered toxic and hazardous to ship thus very expensive basically causing us to self terminate driving ice cars. Then some of us will convert our v12 ferraris to 2 electric motors and make fake tubi muffler noises out muffler simulators trumpet speakers
     
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  24. EastMemphis

    EastMemphis Formula Junior
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    May 25, 2019
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    I think it will be more like the aviation model. The fuel will still be available at specialty places or can be purchased online to be delivered in cans.

    Even if the cost per gallon went up by a factor of 10 or even 20, fuel would still be a minor cost in the ownership of a classic car of any kind.
     
  25. Fennicus

    Fennicus Formula Junior

    Apr 10, 2015
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    Pekka T.
    Hi Terry,

    Exactly, you are perfectly right. I do hope I didn't sound too naive in using the word "free", of course there is no free lunch, we pay for all that and all the other things via taxes, VAT is 24% here (I believe its 25% in Sweden and Denmark). I just paid ca €5500 (ca. $6.600USD) of taxes to the state to be able to register the 25+ years old 456GT locally in here. I think in Denmark that could also have been significantly more, they used as reference a new GTC4 Lusso that costs €409.000,- Euros in Finland (that's ca. $491.000 USD) and then made the deductions based on age. I had my car stationed in Germany the previous 5+ years, except for 14 days of temporary tax free use per year because of maintenance and testing. Those are our rules. YMMV.

    Cheers!

    PS. Typical income tax is ca 20-50% depending on how much you earn, but you can deduct all kinds of things like certain amounts of mortgage rates, household costs, etc. Like I wrote I'm not complaining, we get a lot for it, some folks have resigned from the church to avoid the church taxes, but I think that's also valuable as they maintain the old churches, the cemeteries and do a lot of social work. The same goes for our national broadcasting company , we pay ca €300 Euros in taxes per year, but IMHO get more value than CNN and HBO would give us, and of course you will always have people who say that this is biased, etc. In a way EVERYTHING is always biased, as it depends on the editors personal views, his/her boss and the general atmosphere, but I think most people can relate to that and make some comparisons. Next door in Russia I don't think people trust ANY media. :D
     
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  26. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Brian Crall


    Hey jerk off, politics are part and parcel of the future of our cars. And take your dick out of your own *******. We are talking about cars.
     
  27. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Brian Crall
    Hey, stop with the politics. Its over the line don't you know.
     
  28. Fennicus

    Fennicus Formula Junior

    Apr 10, 2015
    523
    Helsinki, Finland
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    Pekka T.
    #50 Fennicus, Jan 24, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
    Now this makes me wonder if you have a chance at all. Was that the way your mama taught you to talk to other people?

    I bet it was, unfortunately I’ve been to Texas. You guys never learn. Please grow up and start behaving or shut up!

    To me it just sounds you’re jealous as we happen to have a society that actually works. (And you don’t)

    Ok, so you hate me and everything I say. I get it. But couldn’t you just ignore me? It should be very easy, you don’t ever need to read or hear anything I write or say and I am sure we will never meet. I have no desire to travel to the USA.

    We were discussing with no personal attacks on anyone or their opinions and you start picking up fights. You would not survive long in these parts of the world. I feel sorry for you. Do yourself a favor and go see a psychiatric before it’s too late. Bye!
     

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