Sick QV Cylinder - Any suggestions? | FerrariChat

Sick QV Cylinder - Any suggestions?

Discussion in '308/328' started by Adaptel, Nov 18, 2007.

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  1. Adaptel

    Adaptel Karting

    Jul 21, 2007
    89
    Concord, NH USA
    Full Name:
    Kevin Pearson
    I have recently finished a complete motor overhaul on my 85 308 QV this fall, and am just ironing out the final issues with this troublesome motor. To make a really long story short, the motor was in really rough shape when I aquired it and there was no history. Engine was removed, torn down, and every inch of it was gone over to find and correct the many internal problems that lurked inside. I have driven the car about 300km since the motor rebuild, but was experiencing a performance issue where I knew it wasn't running as "crisp" as it should. Today, I did some investigating and this is what my spark plugs look like (NGK Irridiums):
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    To my untrained eye, Cylinder 3 is obviously sick, and the others seem to be running lean (am I correct to assume this?). Among other things, during the rebuild, here is a list of some of the related things that were replaced and done:
    • New Deves Piston Rings, cylinders 1 & 3 liners replaced..rest were just honed to deglaze, new big-end rod bearings
    • Heads rebuilt from local reputable machine shiop, new guides, oil seals, & 4 bent valves were replaced (cyl 1 & 3)
    • 8 New Bosch Fuel Injectors
    • New Ignition wires, inspected extenders, no cracks under magnification...decided to reuse
    • All new gaskets, seals, belts, hoses, filter, and everything that "should" have been done to be on the safe side.

    A quick compression test of all cylinders yeilded the following results (cyl-pressure):
    1-152 2-148 3-151 4-149 5-150 6-149 7-149 8-148

    I am assuming that cyl 1 and 3 have markededly higher numbers becauser they received new cylinder liners and the rings have seated quicker than in the ones I carefully honed (deglazed), but there seems to be plenty of compression in the cylinder that is producting a black plug. What I don't understand, is how this one cylinder might be looking like ti is really rich. Can this happen to a plug if it is not firing all the time due to a bad extender, plug wire, or something like this?

    I'm no pro, yet this is my wild theory, and I welcome any input. I'm thinking that intermittant spark is happening in this cylinder, and the unburned air/fuel is causing the lambda system to detect a "too rich" condition and lean out the mixture.....and is why the other plugs to look as they do. I am probably way off with that, and welcome any ideas as to why this plug is black, and where to go next in my troubleshooting? Thanks in advance.
     
  2. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 11, 2003
    2,370
    Frederick, Maryland
    Full Name:
    Brian Brown
    From the compression test, I would say that the motor is in good shape. The plug on cylinder #2 indicates that the misture is too lean on that cylinder and the plug on cylinder #3 indicates that the mixture is too rich.
    The difference in fuel mixture can be caused by either bad fuel injectors (highly likely) or a bad fuel distributor (not very likely)

    You can remove the injectors, and have them tested for spray pattern and opening pressure and have them cleaned, or just replace them as they are fairly cheap. The replacement injectors have been changed to a better material (brass) which won't corrode like the original injectors (steel).
     
  3. Adaptel

    Adaptel Karting

    Jul 21, 2007
    89
    Concord, NH USA
    Full Name:
    Kevin Pearson
    I totally understand that the first suspect would be the injectors....but the thing that is stumping me is that they ARE new. Before I installed them, I did to a spray pattern check & made sure they were all putting out the same volume (all injectors in a cup while pressing down on distributor plate). Could this be due to a bad fuel distributor? Are each of the 8 fuel output ports (that connect to the injectors) independantly metered, or is is a common "bus" which is like an 8-way tee. Is is possible for one outlet on the fuel distributor not supply fuel, or supply a volume or pressure which is different than the others?
     
  4. spiderseeker

    spiderseeker Formula 3

    Jul 22, 2005
    1,718
    Colorado
    Full Name:
    Steve
    Cyl 3 looks like it hasn't been firing properly. If it's not the injector, then maybe ignition related, extenders, plug wires, dist cap, etc.
     
  5. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    13,743
    The twilight zone
    Full Name:
    Help me get this thing finished! https://gofund.me/39def36c
    You could have a leaking manifold gasket. Or maybe some dirt got in to your new injectors?
     
  6. hackrider

    hackrider Karting

    Feb 9, 2006
    153
    Albuquerque, NM USA
    Full Name:
    Dave
    I would double check the plug extenders. They tend to develop pin holes and arc to the side or open up inside. They are cheap and can be a headache if bad.

    Hack
     
  7. Adaptel

    Adaptel Karting

    Jul 21, 2007
    89
    Concord, NH USA
    Full Name:
    Kevin Pearson
    Hmmm....Interesting. Are you pointing at an intake or exhaust manifold? I did notice a slight "ticking" sound coming from the rear bank recently, and it is not coming from the valves (I tried locating it with a mechanic's stethascope). I have seen ex manifold leaks make a ticking sound before, but could a small leak cause cyl 3 to run that rich (black)? I do have all new gaskets, including exhaust, but I know that this does not excuse me from having a leak.

    When the car is warming up, during fast idle, is when I notice that the engine is "missing" the most. Instead of a smooth note, every second or two, the tone drops lower for a fraction of a second which sounds like a misfire. I guess I'm going to re-check injector flow & spray patterns, and I just bit the bullet & ordered some new extenders. My dist caps and rotors are new as well.

    Thanks guys.
     
  8. spang308

    spang308 Formula Junior

    Jul 17, 2004
    893
    York, PA
    Sounds like ignition to me. A random misfire is usually caused by bad leads or extenders. If #3 has a bad lead or extender, it would explain the rich read on the plug.
    A cheap and dirty way to check for intake leaks is to spray carb cleaner where the intakes meet the head. If the idle changes, you got a leak.
    A ticking noise is usually associated with an exhaust leak and will get quieter once warmed up. It wouldn't hurt to put a wrench on the header nuts and make sure they are tight, but that's probably not your misfire/plug problem.

    Good luck,
    Spang
     
  9. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 29, 2006
    18,221
    Twin Cities
    Full Name:
    Tim Keseluk
    Test all plug wires AND extenders for resistance.

    Inspect the distributor cap.

    Looks like it's ignition related.

    I'd bet that #3 either has much higher resistance or is arcing to ground somewhere.

    Sometimes if you run an engine in the dark you can see the arcing.
     
  10. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ

    Dec 12, 2005
    15,130
    Atlanta
    Full Name:
    Tom Spiro
    I vote that you have either a plug wire problem, or extender issue. I doubt you have a fuel problem. there is just not much to go wrong its all pressure related.

    if you do have an intake leak you would hear a siren like sound... much louder than ambient.

    my money is on extenders!
     
  11. Adaptel

    Adaptel Karting

    Jul 21, 2007
    89
    Concord, NH USA
    Full Name:
    Kevin Pearson
    Yep, most of you were right on the money by saying this was ignition related. I was scratching my head like crazy becasue I changed out the cyl 3 extender, checked the resistance of the wires (no probs found), and cyl 3 still wasn't firing all the time. When I checked the resistance again, I got the correct 950ohms, for these wires, but when I jiggled the leads, it jumped to 2.7K. In case anyone lands on this thread chasing down a misfire, I just wanted to say that I found out the hard way that even though your wires might ohm-out correctly, make sure you have SOLID connections. I made up a new wire for #3 and she is running like a top now! Thanks all.

    On a side note, I know this sounds like a stuipid thing but....I have also found that if you are not REALLY careful, it is possible to completely "miss" getting the spark plug wire on the extender when you are using the large rubber caps. There is plenty of room for the externder tip to "flop over" and messle into the side-space of the cap, and it will feel like it is on correctly. I did this a couple times, but quickly caqght it (and am now admiting it!).
     

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