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Discussion in 'Tracking & Driver Education' started by Thecadster, Dec 23, 2018.
Wish I had seen this thread a week earlier - I have a friend looking to sell his Simcraft.
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What is he asking?
I think a number of people here would be interested.
Never mind. Apparently decided to keep it.
If he changes his mind, he has a couple good options. Obviously, he could list it on fchat and probably sell it really fast. Also, he could contact the Simcraft folks and they could consign it for him. I asked them if I were to end up not having enough time to probably utilize the equipment, would they help me get it sold, and they said that they wouldn’t have any problems getting it sold.
I have this unit and I race in IMSA and PWC. I find the Simulator useful for learning new tracks that I havent been to yet and to stay sharp (refreshing me on a track I already know) but not for becoming a better driver nor faster at a track that I already know. Since I already know all the tracks I race on I dont use it much.
I got an Oculus and it is much better than 3 big tv screens. The TV screens look cool but the Oculus (or any VR headset) gives the depth perception that you dont get from monitors and is much more realistic.
Bottomline-- get one if you have the means, want to learn new tracks and have some fun, but it is not necessary for training nor do I think it will make you a better driver. Also If you get a $400 VR head set a quality steering wheel and brake pedal that is all you need-- you could do it for a few thousand dollars.
BTW the sim cost me about $25K. It is huge and heavy (I believe it was 600 lbs). Took a team of people to carry into my game room upstairs, set-up and it will probably never move. If I wanted to sell it, it would have to be disassembled, crated, forklifted, shipped and re-set up by a tech (too expensive and a pain to do). They are fun so I would look at it like getting a cool looking, expensive video game for rich adults and as a by-product it helps you learn tracks ( but you could do that from iracing without the Sim). Now I am being critical and trying to keep it real after owning one for a couple years. No doubt it is fun and I used it a lot when I was first learning tracks.
I have a lot of time in Sim Craft simulators - we have two of them at our club - AMP in Atlanta. While they are fun, and are pretty realistic, its not a sub for seat time. However if you do Oculus rift - then to me its about 85% of the real thing. My home set up is not a full motion rig, but I have really good wheel, and pedals and shifter from Fanatec. IRacing is very good as you an adjust the car - track and weather temp etc. try Road Atlanta early AM heavy fog wet track... to get your brain in gear.
the Sim Craft is great - I cant imagine having one in my house - the do make a lot of vibration, so make sure you have a solid base for it. and good speakers. do the occulus rift VR that really adds to it, I usually don't get motion sick, but for the first couple of min - I was a bit queasy till I got used to it.. and it just really works well. I run the Formula Renault 3.5 in I Racing... I'm down to about 1:12.389 at Road Atlanta... usually more consistent in the 1:13's.
Thanks a ton for the quality feedback. It’s reassuring to hear positive feedback from people with significant seat time, especially after I have already sent the 50% deposit. Regarding vibration, I have an unused space above a detached garage that is fully finished and conditioned. I am going to convert that space to the quintessential men’s den of which this simulator will be the central feature.
Check out Vesaro. Very cool. Very expensive. Lots of different config.
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practicing on a sim is fantastic method to learn car control. that and deserted parking lot in the snow and rain. but hard to imagine you need a $75k rig after one track day. im a very experience hpde instructor and im pretty satisfied with a playseat, feedback wheel/pedal, and forza. i learned the ring that way so when i went there, i already knew every turn. btw, ive tried motion sims and they are amazing but im not of the level that can really utilize all they offer sort of like me trying to drive an f1 car. but if you have the room and money, why not?
75 grand? Madness. Unless you're a full time racing driver or running it as an events company, no need to spend that amount of money. Nowhere near!
Do yourself a favour and order something like the following:
Sim-labs P1 rig + seat €1200
OSW assembled 30nm direct drive motor €1100. Direct Drive offers an enormous amount of incredible feedback at true accurate steering weight as would be in the real racing car.
Heusinkveld Engineering pedals + handbrake + mechanical sequential shifter €1100-€1800 (depending if you go for their normal pedals or their ultimate, 55KG of braking force to 130KG for the ultimates. About as real feel as possible)
Wheel with button plate with Asher racing magnetic shifters (same tech as used in racing cars so proper feedback again). Many to choose from. FI Tech pictured, but expect around 700-1000 euros
A decent PC, top of the line self build around 3000. If you can't build it yourself NZXT do a pre-built service and it's like 200 bucks. Really well done.
Then decide if you want to run VR or single/triple monitors. VR is under a grand, triple monitors depends how big you go. Personally I'd try VR first, if you don't like it (some don't) return it and buy a triple monitor setup. You can go 3x 75'' but you're really just showing of size of wallet vs smaller monitors (as you go larger they need to be further away for Field of View anyways, so utterly pointless).
Do you need seat motion? Some Racing teams run it on their factory setup. Most racing drivers at their home setup don't bother. Even F1 drivers will their massive wallets don't. It's like 12K. I really don't see the point if I'm very honest with you.
I'd do the above (in fact am doing) minus the motion seat. Spend the rest on a cheap racing car/kart. Can't always go to the track but you can on a sim rig.
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I think a full motion simulator would be a heck of alot more fun, which honestly is the point to these setups for most of us. If you've got the money, seems like it would be awesome.
I would imagine that the motion isn't accurate enough to help a professional (and might actually be detrimental), and they are doing this for their job not for fun so its not surprising they don't use it.
PS for all in this thread, this guy goes really in depth on a lot of sim racing gear. Worth a watch on many products!
I haven't done iRacing since 2011, but even way back then it was very valuable to me running the Challenge Club Racing season tracks I had never been like Sebring and VIR. I went to pro drivers Jason Hart's house and used his unit while he coached me. Amazing when I actually hit the track I felt 99% comfortable even on the out lap.
For fun last year I put together a value system similar to what Bas Jaski describes for under $4,000. Our local FCA group use to meet online a couple times a week on PlayStation. iRacing was more realistic and good as an actual trainer, but the PS games with buddies are so much fun. I will probably start playing more soon.
I genuinely do not see the full motion as worth the money. If it was 2 grand or so, yeah I'd probably add it in time. But no way am I spending 10K+ on the full motion. I've been on a few full motion rigs and trust me...a direct drive unit is 10x better.
Hey if you've got the cash why not. Even if you do the entire system I posted above, with full motion...you're spending 20 grand. A lot less than 75.
Thank you very much, Bas.
That’s extremely helpful. I think I have my new mid-winter project now!
I like a seat shaker, but even without any motion after a few laps you are "feeling" the G's anyway. If you are a pro, semi-pro, or stupid rich then I think full motion is great. I imagine about 90% of the high end sim's out there aren't utilized much at all.
Hi - Im intrigued with this now. Do you have a photo of your set up and an exact spec sheet? Had a look on the site and got a little confused!
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I went ahead and ordered the APEX5. I hope to have it in the next 3-4 weeks. The extensive demo I did was simply too much. It became an incessant itch that I had to scratch. I feel compelled to mention that I don’t think I am “super rich” and I used the same justification for this simulastor purchase that I use for my car purchases which is: 40 years from now, 20 years from now, 20 days from now, etc would I rather have had the _________ (fill it in with Ferrari, Lamborghini, Simcraft APEX5) or the money I spent on it. It’s really as simple as that. Would I rather have the extra marginal net worth or the joy that comes from the experience(s). My budget for cars and car related adventures (I did Corsa Pilota last summer and intend to do it along with the Lambroghini equivalent this summer) is $20,000/month. I save and save and save the monthly budget amount, and then spend accordingly. I have done this for years. At least for me, it’s a good way to go. Naturally, YMMV. The best part is, because I consider the monthly budget a true sunk cost (money spent and now gone), I don’t get hung up too much on depreciation. I only look at that issue to the extent that it somewhat mitigates my ability to move into replacement cars in the future, but otherwise it’s a non-issue. I thought early on that depreciation might well steal much of the joy associated with this hobby and so I wanted to engineer a system to work around it. Sorry to go so far off topic, it’s just that the money part of this equation was referenced frequently and I thought it would be worth sharing my thoughts. Special thanks to all who have contributed to this topic. I have learned a ton (I always do on Fchat).
Interestingly enough, in gathering info prior to moving forward, I was able to gather direct intel from several racers in diverse segments and all had praise for the system. They were quick to describe the limitations in detail, but they also pointed out that to do better, you had to spend $1M or more. Two of the people I directly gathered info from have home units, one is a current NASCAR driver (that I mentioned earlier) and the other is a Lambroghini Squadra Corse driver and both spend considerable time training weekly. Now, once more, I harbor zero illusions that somehow this home unit (toy) will make me pro, my success metrics are far less grand. I merely wish to have a ton of fun, improve my skills, and explore my interest to see how deep it really is.
Here is good review video on that Simlab cockpit you mentioned earlier. At least, I think it is the same one. Seems like an incredible value for sure.
Just out of curiosity, have you every done a couple hours on a Simcraft APEX simulator? Tons of variation in how different manufacturers interpret “full motion”. One version is not the same as another. Some are more successful than others at creating oversteer, undertsteer, tire grip, etc.
funny story, local service shop had a $500k simulator in there, it was so sensitive that if you drove off the road it would break a couple of the shocks (actuators) and cost was like $10-20k to fix.
Thanks - I meant the Sim-lab system as its european based and there is a UK company agent. The Simcraft would be cost prohibitive getting it over here
Nearly the same...that's the GT1, the P1 is the one I'm after. The P1 is a bit sturdier so better for direct drive wheels (and motion, for that matter)
Not the Simcraft one, no. I've been in another one but forgot the name, it didn't have the rail on the bottom that slowly moves forwards and backwards but rather had more extreme up/down/side movements and seatbelt tightening so simulate G force (pretty cool and worked well). D box Is what I'd use for a home setup. Easy to service.
It's all relative, of course. If the cost doesn't put you off go for it. It looks like absolute great kit.