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SL55's 8pot Brembo to fit in 355 ?

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by charleswan, Dec 22, 2003.

  1. charleswan

    charleswan Rookie

    Dec 22, 2003
    40
    Hong Kong
    Full Name:
    Charles Wan
    #1 charleswan, Dec 22, 2003
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Just wondering if anyone would suggest this modification ?

    Putting the exact system on the SL55 which is Brembo 8pot 360mm Front and Brembo 4pot 330mm rear in a 355.

    I wonder if the original 355 brake pump have enough power to push these calipers ?

    Attached is the brake comparision of SL55 and 360CS
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  2. TCM

    TCM Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2003
    552
    Tyngsborough, MA
    I would not reccommend doing this. The cars are designed to have a particular brake balance/bias and the 355 used brakes that were designed for the car. If you want a Brembo kit, get the one they reccommend for the 355. In all honesty, the 8 pot calipers are overkill. They are heavier then the 4 pot and cannot provide much more braking force due to tire adhesion limitations. You are better off with a 4 piston front and rear setup. Hope this helps.
     
  3. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2003
    1,535
    Hong Kong, Tokyo
    Full Name:
    Wayne
    Charles:

    I am with TCM on this. Street tires will limit your braking performance, not the up rated brake kits. Unless you are using slicks on track, a good 330mm 4 pot kit will do nicely.

    Ben at Italian Motors set up a 330mm front kit and X-drilled the OEM rear on my 355. No more brake fade at ZIC track days and can brake almost as late as the 360 F1 at turn 1.
     
  4. Dale

    Dale F1 Veteran

    Oct 7, 2003
    5,211
    uk
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    Dale Juan
    Hi guys,arnt these SL55'S sensotronic brake control,(brake buy wire)none hydrulic,
    im sure they are i could be wrong though,
    Dale.
     
  5. TCM

    TCM Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2003
    552
    Tyngsborough, MA
    Dale:

    You are not all wrong. It is a sense by wire braking system, but each individual corner has its own hydraulic braking system to implement the reading it gets from the brake pedal, and also acts as a back up incase the electronics fail. This system has been heavily criticised by people due to the brake sensitivity in light braking procedures. But is still one of the best brake offerings on the market. Hope this helps.
     
  6. Dale

    Dale F1 Veteran

    Oct 7, 2003
    5,211
    uk
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    Dale Juan
    Thanks for the info,we have a customer thats just brought a SL55
    but havent had it in yet for service,just another merc at the end of the day,
    cheers
    Dale.
     
  7. BigHead

    BigHead Formula Junior

    Oct 31, 2003
    992
    Outside of Boston
    Full Name:
    Dennis
    If I may be candid for a moment....

    1. The stock 355 Brembo brakes are, in a word, spectacular for their intended use. I have not heard of a single instance of these brakes overheating in STREET use; simply put, the brakes are better than the car. For TRACK use, they are surprisingly good. It takes a lot of work, on a brake-heavy track, on a hot day, by a beginner/intermediate driver, to overheat these brakes (assuming you've upgraded the pads and fluid).

    2. If you are TRACKING your 355, and have brake boiling problems, consider upgrading to the 355 CHALLENGE brakes. This system is designed for the car, offers better cooling, and will be much, much cheaper than trying to retrofit MB brakes.

    3. Adding more pistons does not measurably improve your braking distance. Right now, your 355's braking distance is a function of the weight of the car, the sophistication of the ABS and the traction at the TIRE. If you're braking hard enough to trigger the ABS, your brakes are adequate. It's that simple. Yes, going to bigger/better brakes can afford other benefits, like better "feel" and/or "control", as well as better resistance to heating, but it won't stop your car any shorter. And if you're adding weight, it's UNSPRUNG, ROTATING weight, which will worsen your performance.

    4. So, aside from the "bling" factor, why would you want to upgrade your brakes?

    5. Here's the path I would recommend, on a cost/benefit basis, for someone suffering from brake problems on their 355 and looking to cure them: (a) Pads; (b) Fluid; (c) tires; (d) ducting; and (e) Challenge brakes. Actually, before all of that, I'd spend some time learning how to brake properly.

    <end of rant>

    Don't believe me? Read this article:
    http://www.corvettesofmelbourne.com/COMNewsFiles/NCoMNewsTechArticlesPulpFriction.html

    vty,

    --Dennis
     
  8. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2003
    1,535
    Hong Kong, Tokyo
    Full Name:
    Wayne
    Dennis raises a number of valid points such as 355's brakes are indeed more than adequate for street use. And huge brakes with more pistons won't stop the car any faster on street tires.

    Although poor driver skill will cause earlier onset of brake fade on track, but I respectfully do not agree with Dennis that it takes a lot to over heat 355's brakes on track. My personal experience has shown that after 5 hot laps the 355's OEM brakes although not quite boiling, but fades enough for you to lose confidence to drive at the limit. That's why I opted to upgrade the front brakes to 330mm 4 pot Brembo's and kept the rear OEM as is except for X-drilling. In essence this shifted the brake biase a little more heavily towards the front than OEM, but it actually suits the track better IMHO.

    I didn't get the Challenge spec Brembo's from Ferrari because it would have coted more than the regular aftermarekt Brembo kit. Also the Challenge spec rear setup does not have parking brake so won't pass annual road inspecton.
     
  9. TCM

    TCM Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2003
    552
    Tyngsborough, MA
    The Challenge Spec brakes are not that great either for competitive use. When I was over in Modena at the head of Challenge series, they were explaining to me that their brakes were only good for 1 race. Completely smoked by the end of the sprint session. They were looking for a way to imrpove them as they wer getting a lot of customer complaints. I do agree with BigHead, that adding some ducting, upgrading fluid, and changing pads are definately the first steps before buying a new braking setup.
     
  10. BigHead

    BigHead Formula Junior

    Oct 31, 2003
    992
    Outside of Boston
    Full Name:
    Dennis
    FWIW, a friend and I both had our 355s at track events this past summer. Running stock brakes, with both of us on "street/track" pads (although I was running PFC-97s and he was running Pagids). Same wheels, same tires (used Pirelli P-Zero D3 compound slicks). Same number of track sessions, same number of laps. The thickness of the rotors and pads were similar at the start.

    After three days at one track, we inspected our brakes. No measurable wear on my rotors, and my pads had worn about 15% from new. His rotors had much more wear, and the pads were almost gone.

    I suspect the biggest difference was that I was consistently LATER in my braking, braking harder but also not "riding" the brakes. And I always always always took care to do as much cool down as possible.

    Without exaggeration, I've been pretty successful at getting at least a full season out of rotors and 1/3 to 1/2 season out of pads. I average 11k miles a year, between street and track, and I probably average 12-15 days on the track with the Ferrari (with another 12-15 in my wife's Porsche). And these tracks vary from relatively easy-braking tracks like Lime Rock to really tough on braking tracks like Watkins Glen.

    Bottom line, I think the stock brakes work pretty well. And rotors and pads and fluid are, relatively speaking, CHEAP (in part because Porsche used the same parts on some 911s and 944s, so discounts are available).

    vty,

    --Dennis
     
  11. rexrcr

    rexrcr Formula 3

    Nov 27, 2002
    1,572
    Kalamazoo, MI
    Full Name:
    Rob Schermerhorn
    I completely agree with Dennis' advice, including the order of suggested system improvements. I also agree with his experience and opinion of the stock system's performance at the track. Reread his post, it's the facts regarding brake system performance improvements.

    The OE F355 system is identical to the 348 system used in Challenge. With proper air ducts added, slotted OE rotors, proper race pads, Dow Corning (Ford HD) brake fluid, regular maintenance (including seal replacement every 12 track days, and always before Montreal) this system operated at 1000 degF rotor temperatures, 400 degF caliper temperatures for hours with only pad changes and bleeding to ensure fresh fluid. (Yes, the 348 is less power, but not that much less, and running slicks, which increases demands put on the brakes).

    That said, contemplating a caliper change for the "bling" factor is fine. Total caliper piston area must be known to ensure proper hydraulic ratios are maintained. Eight piston calipers will have four or six brake pads each, which does offer improved "bite" because there are more pad leading edges. The performance benefits will not be realized in a street application on the F355, and may actually degrade. ABS system will not be optimized any longer. Rear delay and proportioning valve may not be optimum either.


    Best regards,

    Rob Schermerhorn
     
  12. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    6,333
    My F355 has been on the track for track 32 days.

    It only took 4 track days for me to reach the limits of the stock brake pads (on fresh fluid).

    I switched to Ferrodo DS2500 pads. These pads are streetable down here in Texas, take massive heat on the track, and last about 1/3rd as long as a set of Bridgestone S03s: 5 track days for the pads, 15 track days for the tires.

    This winter, after 32 track days, we replaced the rotors, and rebuilt the brake caliper seals. The old seals were looking a little peaked, but still servicible. I think this is a pretty good life out of the original rotors.

    The only thing that really is required to improve the track performance is more air ducted towards the rear rotors.
     
  13. redhead

    redhead F1 Rookie
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    Dec 26, 2001
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    ~Red~
    #13 redhead, Feb 3, 2004
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    One of our customers had us install the Brembo suggested kit on his F355. The calipers are the F50 calipers, which are almost the same as the F40,and the rotors are the F40 size rotors. He used to track this car, and as you can see below, it really helped fill in the rims gaps. I have driven this car many times, and it is a unbelivable braking car, slicks or street tyres. PM me if you would like more info on this kit, as I am a Brembo dealer.
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  14. redhead

    redhead F1 Rookie
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    Dec 26, 2001
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    ~Red~
    #14 redhead, Feb 3, 2004
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  15. f35578

    f35578 Rookie

    May 13, 2005
    7
    Full Name:
    Teo

    I have a 1995 F355 Berlinetta and i'm currently looking at replacing the stock system with the brembo GT kit for the F355.

    Kindly let me know how many choices are there and the prices.

    Thank you
     

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