Sleepy Time for Northwest Pilots?

teak360 · Oct 22, 2009

Sounds like they fell asleep at the wheel. Kind of ironic it's safer to fall asleep at the controls of a passenger jet than at the controls of a car.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33436497/ns/travel-news

Jedi · Oct 22, 2009

Same thing happened a couple years ago on a flight from Honolulu to Maui.

Amazing... isn't it?

beast · Oct 22, 2009

Great couple of days for Delta/NWA

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/10/22/333889/ntsb-investigates-errant-northwest-a320.html

and

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/10/22/333830/ntsb-investigates-active-taxiway-landing-by-delta.html

2NA · Oct 22, 2009

Are we sure they weren't having a few cocktails?

This has happened before.

You would think that someone should have noticed that they were approaching their destination.

GuyIncognito · Oct 22, 2009

beast said: ↑

Great couple of days for Delta/NWA

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/10/22/333889/ntsb-investigates-errant-northwest-a320.html

and

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/10/22/333830/ntsb-investigates-active-taxiway-landing-by-delta.html
Click to expand...

oopsy daisy

James_Woods · Oct 23, 2009

News was claiming a rumor that they had gotten into some sort of "argument" rather than falling asleep...but there is no official comment.

Interesting too that they were within seconds of sending up two F-16s after the airliner because radio contact had been lost for almost an hour.

teak360 · Oct 24, 2009

.
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Lemke · Oct 24, 2009

I wish I had been a fly on the wall when the pilots discovered that they had overflown their destination. That would have been pretty funny.

Simon^2 · Oct 24, 2009

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091024/ap_on_bi_ge/us_northwest_airport_overflown

My favorite line..

The police report said that the crew indicated they had been having a heated discussion about airline policy...

If your going to lie, go all the way... They should have just said they were studying the safety manual...

news.yahoo.com said: ↑

MINNEAPOLIS The first officer of the Northwest Airlines jet that missed its destination by 150 miles says there was no disagreement in the cockpit, neither he nor the captain was napping and the passengers were never in any danger.

But in an interview with The Associated Press two days after he and a colleague blew past their destination as air traffic controllers tried frantically to reach them, pilot Richard Cole would not say just what it was that led to them to forget to land Flight 188.

"We were not asleep; we were not having an argument; we were not having a fight," Cole told the AP.

Air traffic controllers and pilots tried for more than an hour Wednesday night to contact Cole and the flight's captain, Timothy B. Cheney, of Gig Harbor, Wash., using radio, cell phone and data messages. On the ground, concerned officials alerted National Guard jets to prepare to chase the airliner from two locations, though none of the military planes left the runway.

"It was not a serious event, from a safety issue," Cole said in front of his Salem, Ore., home. "I would tell you more, but I've already told you way too much."

Unfortunately, the cockpit voice recorder may not tell the tale.

New recorders retain as much as two hours of cockpit conversation and other noise, but the older model aboard Northwest's Flight 188 includes just the last 30 minutes only the very end of Wednesday night's flight after the pilots realized their error over Wisconsin and were heading back to Minneapolis.

Cole would not discuss why it took so long for the pilots to respond to radio calls, "but I can tell you that airplanes lose contact with the ground people all the time. It happens. Sometimes they get together right away; sometimes it takes awhile before one or the other notices that they are not in contact."

A police report released Friday said the pilots passed breathalyzer tests and were apologetic after the flight. Cheney and Cole had just started their work week and were coming off a 19-hour layover, the Minneapolis Star Tribune reported Saturday, citing an internal Northwest document it said was described to the newspaper.

The police report said that the crew indicated they had been having a heated discussion about airline policy.

But aviation safety experts and other pilots were deeply skeptical they could have become so distracted by shop talk that they forgot to land an airplane carrying 144 passengers. The most likely possibility, they said, is that the pilots simply fell asleep somewhere along their route from San Diego.

"It certainly is a plausible explanation," said Bill Voss, president of the Flight Safety Foundation in Alexandria, Va.

Cheney and Cole have been suspended and are to be interviewed by National Transportation Safety Board investigators. The airline, acquired last year by Delta Air Lines, is also investigating. Messages left at Cheney's home were not returned.

FAA spokesman Tony Molinaro said in general, an unsafe condition created by a pilot could lead to the suspension of the person's pilot license and possibly a civil penalty.

With worries about terrorists still high, even after contact was re-established, air traffic controllers asked the crew to prove who they were by executing turns.

"Controllers have a heightened sense of vigilance when we're not able to talk to an aircraft. That's the reality post-9/11," said Doug Church, a spokesman for the National Air Traffic Controllers Association.

NTSB spokesman Keith Holloway said fatigue and cockpit distraction will be looked into. Investigators were in the process Saturday of scheduling interviews with the pilots, he said.

Audio from the cockpit voice recorder was downloaded at NTSB headquarters on Friday, Holloway said, adding that investigators may have more information about the content on Monday.

During the flight, the pilots were finally alerted to their situation when a flight attendant called on an intercom from the cabin.

Voss said a special concern was that the many safety checks built into the aviation system to prevent incidents like this one or to correct them quickly apparently were ineffective until the very end. Not only couldn't air traffic controllers and other pilots raise the Northwest pilots for an hour, but the airline's dispatcher should have been trying to reach them as well. The three flight attendants onboard should have questioned why there were no preparations for landing being made. Brightly lit cockpit displays should have warned the pilots it was time to land.

"It's probably something you would say never would happen if this hadn't just happened," Voss said.

___

AP Airlines Writers Joshua Freed in Minneapolis and Harry R. Weber in Atlanta and AP Writers Joan Lowy in Washington, Amy Forliti in Minneapolis and Dave Koenig in Dallas contributed to this report. Cain reported from Salem, Ore.
Click to expand...

donv · Oct 25, 2009

Exactly. I'm pretty sure that, barring some sort of incredible scenario, those guys are going to get fired and lose their licenses, and that's entirely appropriate. If they weren't asleep, there is really no excuse for a loss of situational awareness like that. None. If they had some sort of equipment malfunction or emergency, I think they would have made that information known.

If they had said they had fallen asleep, it could have led to a discussion of fatigue, etc. Which probably would have led to a better outcome for them.

Incidentally, the 777 has a system to alert the crew if no actions are taken for a set period of time-- no switches flipped, microphones triggered, etc. It triggers a CAS message, and eventually a warning horn (acknowledging the original CAS message resets the timer).

Simon^2 said: ↑

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091024/ap_on_bi_ge/us_northwest_airport_overflown

My favorite line..

The police report said that the crew indicated they had been having a heated discussion about airline policy...

If your going to lie, go all the way... They should have just said they were studying the safety manual...
Click to expand...

drjohngober · Oct 25, 2009

Maybe they were discussing airline policy that states at least one pilot must stay awake.

1ual777 · Oct 26, 2009

drjohngober said: ↑

Maybe they were discussing airline policy that states at least one pilot must stay awake.
Click to expand...

No it was a scientific study to see who could fall asleep first.

wa98012 · Oct 26, 2009

It's an amazing coincidence that they overflew for just long enough for the CVR to loop and overwrite itself. It's a good thing I'm not paranoid by nature or I might start connecting some tinfoil hat dots.

jamie140 · Oct 26, 2009

Asleep without a doubt. Any ifr pilot knows the sh!tstorm that starts upon a split second hesitation to confirm any atc communication.

Kds · Oct 26, 2009

Anyone care to "guestimate" how much longer they had before they hit bingo fuel ?

donv · Oct 27, 2009

They got their licenses revoked.

SpecialK43 · Oct 27, 2009

As they should. The main reason I don't like flying, you trust a total stranger with your life.

Simon^2 · Oct 27, 2009

donv said: ↑

They got their licenses revoked.
Click to expand...

good thing. I'm sure they'll appeal. but no passenger airline in the US will hire these Rip Van Winkle knock-offs

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/27/airliner.fly.by/index.html

beast · Oct 27, 2009

Now the claim that they were using there laptop computers at the time of no comms.

NTSB Advisory
National Transportation Safety Board
Washington, DC 20594
October 26, 2009

NTSB ISSUES UPDATE ON ITS INVESTIGATION OF FLIGHT 188 THAT OVERFLEW INTENDED MINNEAPOLIS AIRPORT

In its continuing investigation of an Airbus A320 that overflew the Minneapolis-St Paul International/Wold-Chamberlain Airport (MSP), the National Transportation Safety Board has developed the following factual information: On Wednesday, October 21, 2009, at 5:56 pm mountain daylight time, an Airbus A320, operating as Northwest Airlines (NWA) flight 188, became a NORDO (no radio communications) flight at 37,000 feet. The flight was operating as a Part 121 flight from San Diego International Airport, San Diego, California (SAN) to MSP with 144 passengers, 2 pilots and 3 flight attendants.

Both pilots were interviewed separately by NTSB investigators yesterday in Minnesota. The following is an overview of the interviews:

* The first officer and the captain were interviewed for over 5 hours combined.
* The Captain, 53 years old, was hired in 1985. His total flight time is about 20,000 hours, about 10,000 hours of A-320 time of which about 7,000 was as pilot in command.
* The First Officer, 54 years old, was hired in 1997. His total flight time is about 11,000 hours, and has about 5,000 hours on the A-320.
* Both pilots said they had never had an accident, incident or violation.
* Neither pilot reported any ongoing medical conditions.
* Both pilots stated that they were not fatigued. They were both commuters, but they had a 19-hour layover in San Diego just prior to the incident flight. Both said they did not fall asleep or doze during the flight.
* Both said there was no heated argument.
* Both stated there was a distraction in the cockpit. The pilots said there was a concentrated period of discussion where they did not monitor the airplane or calls from ATC even though both stated they heard conversation on the radio. Also, neither pilot noticed messages that were sent by company dispatchers. They were discussing the new monthly crew flight scheduling system that was now in place as a result of the merger. The discussion began at cruise altitude.
* Both said they lost track of time.
* Each pilot accessed and used his personal laptop computer while they discussed the airline crew flight scheduling procedure. The first officer, who was more familiar with the procedure was providing instruction to the captain. The use of personal computers on the flight deck is prohibited by company policy.
* Neither pilot was aware of the airplane's position until a flight attendant called about 5 minutes before they were scheduled to land and asked what was their estimated time of arrival (ETA). The captain said, at that point, he looked at his primary flight display for an ETA and realized that they had passed MSP. They made contact with ATC and were given vectors back to MSP.
* At cruise altitude - the pilots stated they were using cockpit speakers to listen to radio communications, not their headsets.
* When asked by ATC what the problem was, they replied "just cockpit distraction" and "dealing with company issues".
* Both pilots said there are no procedures for the flight attendants to check on the pilots during flight.

The Safety Board is interviewing the flight attendants and other company personnel today. Air traffic control communications have been obtained and are being analyzed. Preliminary data from the cockpit voice recorder (CVR) revealed the following:

* The CVR recording was 1/2 hour in length.
* The cockpit area microphone channel was not working during this recording. However, the crew's headset microphones recorded their conversations.
* The CVR recording began during final approach, and continued while the aircraft was at the gate.
* During the hours immediately following the incident flight, routine aircraft maintenance provided power to the CVR for a few minutes on several occasions, likely recording over several minutes of the flight.

The FDR captured the entire flight which contained several hundred aircraft parameters including the portion of flight where there was no radio communication from the flight crew. Investigators are examining the recorded parameters to see if any information regarding crew activity during the portion of flight where radio contact was lost can be obtained.

The Safety Board's investigation continues.

-30-

NTSB Media Contact: Keith Holloway
[email protected]
(202) 314-6100
Click to expand...

donv · Oct 27, 2009

In all honesty, I think they would have been better off saying they fell asleep.

beast said: ↑

Now the claim that they were using there laptop computers at the time of no comms.
Click to expand...

James_Woods · Oct 28, 2009

donv said: ↑

In all honesty, I think they would have been better off saying they fell asleep.
Click to expand...

Or that they had a fight and punched each other out.

wax · Oct 28, 2009

Got an In-Flight Video Recording - turns out there was a language barrier
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr8WXP9PItk
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SilverF20C · Oct 28, 2009

wax said: ↑

Got an In-Flight Video Recording - turns out there was a language barrier
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr8WXP9PItk
Click to expand...

What's going through the flight attendants mind during this ordeal? Having to make this announcement...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vosq85B_lMk&feature=related

barry 94formula · Oct 29, 2009

The next question is how long before some passenger sues the airline for negligence, stress, or because this incident has made them afraid to fly?

norcal2 · Oct 29, 2009

"Now the claim that they were using there laptop computers at the time of no comms."
The laptops can be examined to see if they were being used, what programs were used during this timeframe, if they come up with nothing..then its obvious

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