355 - Slow Down Light fixed, but my numbers are still off | FerrariChat

355 Slow Down Light fixed, but my numbers are still off

Discussion in '348/355' started by goodcoffeecode, Apr 25, 2022.

Tags:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. goodcoffeecode

    goodcoffeecode Karting

    Dec 18, 2021
    64
    Devon, UK
    Full Name:
    Chris Arnold
    Hi all,

    Car has been running faultlessly since getting it back from Carrs Exeter a few months ago. Then last Saturday I got the SDL as soon as it started. It had been running fine the day before, although I was slightly aware of an increased "grumbliness" over the previous few days.

    Plugged in the OBDII and could see that LTFT on Bank 1 was -2.3%, compared to 3.9% on Bank 2. There were also voltage differences in the sensors on Banks 1 and 2...
    • Bank 1 Sensor 1 - 0.68v
    • Bank 1 Sensor 2 - 0.19v
    • Bank 2 Sensor 1 - 0.68v
    • Bank 2 Sensor 2 - 0.68v
    Carrs replaced 1 faulty coil pack recently. Guessing that Bank 1 might now also be faulty, I replaced that with the standard Bosch unit. Voltages looked a lot closer to each other, but the SDL didn't go out and the engine was still grumbling.

    I then swapped both Cat ECUs, but the data didn't change (1 is black the other green).

    Next I checked the voltage coming off the Switch wire on both Cat ECUs - these were both 0.5v, indicating that everything's fine.

    Finally, I cleared any error codes from the main ECU and, hey presto, the SDL disappeared! I then disconnected the battery for 10 minutes, fired it up and let it idle for 10 minutes to help it re-learn.

    So, the car now seems to be OK, but my numbers are still off. LTFT on Bank 1 is still -2.3%, whilst Bank 2 is 3.9%. Bank 1 Sensor 1 seems to be lower than the other 3 also (0.27v compared to ~0.36v).

    Some questions...
    1. What is the normal range for LTFT at startup?
    2. As I stand behind the car, looking at it, I have assumed that Bank 1 is on the right
    3. Do the O2 sensors play any part in the fueling BEFORE the engine gets warm?
    4. I don't how to read the Monitor status page. Do the orange crosses mean a) there's a problem or b) that it's not being monitored or c) that it's not being monitor YET?
    5. I've heard people mention a 3rd CAT ECU. Is this true?
    6. Where should I look next?
     
  2. Targatime

    Targatime Formula 3

    Feb 22, 2014
    1,217
    Los Angeles
    If you have a 5.2 car, yes. There's a temp probe next to the bypass valve, and the ECU for it is in the RR corner of the engine bay next to the R main cat ECU. Make sure the probes aren't swapped on the ECU's.

    Incidentally the bypass probe is the one that's giving me fits....totally erratic flashing SDL. I've swapped ECU's, no change. Next I'm going to swap probes, but those rarely go bad.
     
  3. goodcoffeecode

    goodcoffeecode Karting

    Dec 18, 2021
    64
    Devon, UK
    Full Name:
    Chris Arnold
    Yes, it's a 5.2. Is the 3rd one the same design as the other 2? Don't suppose you have a photo do you please?
     
  4. Targatime

    Targatime Formula 3

    Feb 22, 2014
    1,217
    Los Angeles
    The probes and ECU's are identical for all three. My understanding is that the car's main ECU is looking for different signals from the bypass vs main cats. Bypass is more complicated, because it wants to see temp changes that track with bypass operation, whereas for the main cats, it's just making sure temps don't get too high.
     
  5. bcar1

    bcar1 Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 2, 2017
    220
    NYC/NJ
    Full Name:
    Bob
    I had an issue where I accidentally swapped the rhs cat ecu with the bypass ecu because they are right next to each other and all the cables are identical. Also can get a weird state w test pipes where the temperature is so low it triggers an sdl.
     
  6. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    11,516
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    Should be the same as when you turned off the car. The 5.2 car doesn't reset the learned parameters with a battery reset and I'm not sure they even start changing until the car warms up.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    The CAT ECUs are for measuring temperature. I'm not sure why you're looking at these. It's your fuel trims you are worried about.
     
    26street likes this.
  7. goodcoffeecode

    goodcoffeecode Karting

    Dec 18, 2021
    64
    Devon, UK
    Full Name:
    Chris Arnold
    Ah, ok. So now that the SDL is off, there's no need to look any further at the Cat ECUs. Regarding the trims, I'm still not sure where to look next.
     
  8. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    11,516
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    Sorry, I missed your mention of the SDL. If it appeared with the car being cold, then you may have an intermittent Cat ECU or thermocouple problem which may return, but it won't be affecting the fuel trims.

    Despite your values, it seems that the Engine ECU hasn't decided that these values are something to worry about and set a fault code or illuminated your Check Engine light.

    It's up to you whether you want to do some further investigation.

    I'm not sure at this point if your scanner is showing an average voltage. I'm hoping the experts will step in here, but normally, the voltages should fluctuate rapidly on the Sensor 1's after the car has warmed up. The voltages should range between 100 and 900mV (the average being around 450mV). Don't ask me why 450 is an average of 100 and 900mV :D If your scanner is showing average values, then your voltage values seem to be slightly higher than normal (rich condition).

    So the LTFT value is showing that the engine is trying to compensate for the rich condition by subtracting fuel. To figure out what is happening to your car, you may have to keep the engine running for a while to see if the STFT value goes back to 0.0%. It should do this if the LTFT is compensating for the excess fuel.

    There are probably a number of reasons why the car might be running rich:

    Faulty MAF sensor
    Faulty Coolant Temperature Sensor
    Faulty Air Temperature Sensor
    Faulty fuel pressure regulator
    Faulty injectors

    These items can also make the car run lean, depending on the fault.

    I don't know if the split between the LTFT values on the left and right bank is sufficient to help isolate the problem.

    If you want to get a good understanding of fuel trims, I recommend these videos:



     
  9. goodcoffeecode

    goodcoffeecode Karting

    Dec 18, 2021
    64
    Devon, UK
    Full Name:
    Chris Arnold
    What a SUPERB set of videos! They answered so many of my questions - thank you.

    So, what did I learn?

    Firstly, LTFT +/- 5% aren't even worth worrying about. Secondly, the o2 sensor voltages will naturally oscillate in order to allow the cats to periodically deal with different chemicals. Probably not a MAF, coolant temp, or air temp problem as I would expect to see similar problems on both banks. Possibly an issue with cat 1 (on the assumption that Bank 1 Sensor 2 is after it.

    Am I right in thinking that, until I warm it up and even drive it around, the LTFT values are going to have chance to adjust?

    I'll take it for a gentle drive now and just see what happens to both LTFTs as throttle response varies.

    Again, thank you!
     
    Qavion likes this.
  10. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jun 11, 2004
    10,649
    CT
    Full Name:
    John Kreskovsky
    0.19 V on bank 1, sensor 2 could be the result of an exhaust lead up stream of the bank 1 cat.
     
  11. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 22, 2011
    2,752
    Malaysia - KL
    Full Name:
    Miroljub Stojanovic
    Just to clarify further, the voltage from the pre-cat O2 sensor oscillates (approx. 0.1 to 0.9 volt) and the voltage from the post-cat sensor should be fairly stable and read ~0.1-0.2 volt.

    The oscillation of the pre-cat sensor voltage is not really possible to see on a digital voltmeter but an analogue one will show it. Of course, the best it to use an oscilloscope. If the post-cat sensor voltage starts oscillating in a similar manner as the pre-cat one, it means that the CAT is bad. Examples of voltage readings with a good CAT (top graphs) and a bad CAT (bottom graphs):

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
    26street and Qavion like this.
  12. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    11,516
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    Wouldn't an exhaust leak produce more oxygen at the O2 sensor, making the ECU add more fuel, instead of subtracting it?
     
  13. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jun 11, 2004
    10,649
    CT
    Full Name:
    John Kreskovsky

    Rear sensor at 0.1 to 0.2 V means too much O2 in the exhaust, assuming the sensor is good.

    I was just thinking about this. What I meant was you would have an exhaust leak upstream of the rear O2 sensor but down stream of the front sensor, not up stream of the cat. But with both O2 sensors mounted in the cat housing on a 355 it's I don't see how you could get a leak after the upstream senor and before the down stream unless the cat can is cracked or something. Otherwise, 0.19v at the down steam could indicate a bad cat or bad downstream sensor.

    And yes, if the leak was upstream of the front sensor the ECU would see lean and add fuel.
     
    Qavion likes this.

Share This Page