So please enlighten me........

Where did you read that KR and FM are not top drivers?

 

Forget what you read on FChat, just look at statistics.

If you believe what you read here, so far, 4 different drivers in the last two years were "the real thing" and they were also crowned another Schumacher/Senna. So far, I have not seen another Schumacher/Senna. Possible, maybe in the next 2-3 years certain drivers will deserve this title, but for now, after one or two seasons.......I am not convinced.

 

Monaco is a drivers' circuit. Only the best make it to the top. No coincidence that the best of the sport are multiple WDCs (e.g. Senna, Schumacher).

That said, Monaco is also a lot of casino and gambling and sometimes the good ones have bad luck and a mediocre driver can win the whole thing (e.g. Panis).

Because of the speeds reached at Monaco, it is less of an aero circuit than others. However the Brawn GPs are very good cars all around. Monaco needs a well balanced car, that is mechanically perfectly set up. The Brawns are great cars and without KERS can use that extra weight to balance the car, which is what they did: They improved from humble beginnings on Thursday to pole on Saturday.

KR is a top notch driver. WDC and all.

Rubens isn't top notch, but a good driver and the one with the most experience, which helps around Monaco.

Massa is a good driver too. Both Ferrari drivers did very well, given how bad their car is this year. Then again, their car suffers mostly from lack of aero downforce, which nobody really finds in Monaco. Also having KERS on board helped in the tunnel and on the s/f straight.

Does it make more sense now?

 

There is hope with TifosiRon
How many times have I told you, that I don't need the "inside track". I'm perfectly fine watching it all unfold on TV. Glad you have finally come to the same conclusion: Just the facts, mam.

Not sure, whom you referring to, but I am absolutely convinced that Hamilton and Vettel both have it.

Talentwise I put Kimi, Hami, Alonso and Vettel on the same top level. They do however have different levels of experience and years of F1 under their belts, which manifests itself in the results.

 

A lot of the drivers that do well there also live there. Button lives there, Nico grew up there, Massa has a residence there, Fisi does too, Coulthard does, Senna did, etc etc.

 

Vettel and Hamilton have got it, you gotta be blind or plain stupid not see that.

But don't count the last race ..

 

What do you see as the difference between Button and our current champion?

Thus if you are going to put our current champ up on the same top level you also have to put Button ... who is winning races in the best car on the grid AND also beating his teammate who once was 2nd in the WDC.
Pete

 

You're equating "2nd in the WDC" with "2 times WDC"???

 

This year is very telling as to the real level of Hamilton. While LH is certainly a great driver and a worthy WDC, he still has a long way to go before being the next Schumacher/Senna. His mistake in Monaco's qualifying showed this IMO.

Button is delivering spot on with great pace and consistency, and will be a good champion at the end of the year.

 

The cars AVERAGED 100MPH going around the circuit. Don't tell me ground effects and aero have little to no factor.

I think what does matter in Monaco is that driver skill does have more of an effect than some circuits that are really built for pure speed. But, it's just one of many factors including qualifying (can very greatly on traffic), race strategy, and the amplfication of small errors (Hamilton's qualifying mistake for example).

Monaco is where I first realized the true meaning of "driver skill". If you've ever been there and see how they go around the swimming pool in person, it's shocking. It seems nearly impossible for both a car and human being to react so quickly and accurately in what must be at least partially blind when you enter it.. I don't think I've ever been more impressed.

 

Why not?

 

correct, but the Ferrari team did not hate RB as much as McLaren hated Alonso ... Alonso was forced in by sponsors but never wanted and so they worked him "out".

Totally agree. I still think he's a Button, a guy that is very very fast in a good car, but that is it ... and yes of course these sorts of drivers can win many WDC, but ... and this is a big but should never be considered in the same breath as MS, GV, Moss, Fangio, Senna, Prost, Stewart, etc.

Pete

 

Pete, despite the crap I get for saying this, I do not think one can make a judgement about a driver after one, even two seasons. Hamilton may be as good as the previous F1 best, maybe Vettel is another Schumacher, to me a sterling season only says you done well in a great car.

So far.

Maybe because I am a little older than most people in this FChat section, or maybe because I have been following F1 since I was 8 and facinated by a guy named Bandini and excursions into the Monaco harbor, I have seen too many drivers come along and everyone said they are the next Fangio, or the next Clark, the next Rindt, or the next Stewart, or the next Lauda, or the next Senna, or the next Schumacher. But their careers fell flat after a few seasons and that was that.

I call this the Villenueve syndrome. As in Jacques.

I do think Vettle's performance in the last 12 months is a bit more impressive than Hamilton's in 2007. I do not believe the Red Bull is the equivilent of the 2007 Mclaren, so Vettel pushing his car to the front is rather Schumacher like. But I do not feel that I can go any further. But then Vettel's career could suddenly fade away if he is handed a mediocre car year after year. Kinda like Hamilton this year.

I also think that Button has finally proven to his detractors that he is as good as Hamilton or Vettel when driving a great chassis.

Hamilton's accident at Monaco does not mean anything as to his career ability. Raikkonen tested the barriers at Monaco either last year or the year before. So I do not feel I can make a personal judgement after a couple of bad days as to a driver's long term capability.

 

Totally agree on all counts.

We must remember that if a racing driver never has an off he is not trying hard enough ...
Pete

 

So good to see Webber is right up there then











And great result in Monaco!! Hope he continues to rack up the points including a first this season!!!

 

Desperately needs that win ...

Pete

 

Good question.

I once thought that Button was another Senna/Schumacher etc. Then he did many bone headed career choices. It is also part of a true champ to figure out in what cockpit to sit next year.

At least this season I get vindicated somewhat by seeing Button drive flawlessly in a very good car, which is no small feat. But I have seen him drive lousy in a bad car all these years. So he doesn't know what team to pick, can't develop a car and can't lift a bad car to the podium. All things that people like Schumacher, Alonso, Senna and Vettel have accomplished.

But you asked me about Lewis and quite frankly in that regard the jury is still out, because we have only seen him in a top notch car.

Still I do think Hami has gobs more of talent than Button because of what he achieved already compared to his team mate, the 2xWDC Alonso.

 

But you left out one important Monaco fact: it's now all about starting position.
If LH had started in the first 2 rows, if the Brawns had started in the last row, if Vettel was on pole,
If a Force-India was on the front row, I'm not so sure I would bet against it.

 

Or (insert the name of any 1-time WDC here), I remember when Stefan Johannson was 'the next big thing', and then Jean Alesi, lots of 'really great drivers finally getting on good teams with good cars', only to see them go nowhere. (Although when Alesi was at Ferrari that car was a s--tbox. Mansell muscled it to work, Prost never could, the list goes on.

 

Prost never could!!!!!!!! ... er, he was in the running for the WDC in that car until Senna took him off deliberately at Suzuka ... from pole position!

Pete