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So, this just happened. Damned electricals...

Discussion in '308/328' started by thorn, Sep 21, 2020.

  1. TurtleFarmer

    TurtleFarmer Karting

    Jan 13, 2020
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    Been away from the fchat for a couple weeks and just catching up on this thread. Good progress and excited to hear how the pump, filter and hall sensor turn out. Definitely hoping one of those manages to solve your issue...
     
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  3. thorn

    thorn F1 Rookie
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    #127 thorn, Nov 21, 2020 at 5:56 AM
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020 at 6:09 AM
    Yes on the 5v and pin 19. Also, I verified that I had 5V on the signal and power leads when the car was turned on.

    And yes, the docs and website do say that... I was more annoyed that surprised though. Par for the course. ;)

    I bought a ZF (Formerly Cherry) hall sensor, here's the link. The sensor that Electromotive is selling looks identical to me. I believe these are the differences:

    1. The cable will be much longer, so you won't need to construct your own.
    2. The resistor will already be incorporated into the cable.
    3. Also, the sensor may be setup to use 12V for power, not 5V.
    4. They include a long lead for the source power.
    5. It's about $110 more.

    The resistor you use depends on the source power you're providing; the sensor can use anything from 5-36V, I believe. A 5V source = a 1K resistor, and a 12V source = a 2K resistor. Hope that helps. :)
     
  4. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

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    Could somebody remind me why an XDI ignition is a "good thing?" ;)
     
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  5. thorn

    thorn F1 Rookie
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    One advantage - if it completely dies, you don't have to hope you can find a replacement on eBay for $2500. ;)
     
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  6. ginoBBi512

    ginoBBi512 Formula Junior

    Oct 9, 2016
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    My 328s factory ignition system works just fine, now at over 100,000 miles, of course I replaced cap and rotors at about 90,000 miles, wires ,extenders and spark plugs at the regular intervals .i sure do look forward to you finding out and fixing the problem.

    Thank you,
     
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  8. thorn

    thorn F1 Rookie
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    #131 thorn, Nov 21, 2020 at 2:56 PM
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020 at 3:05 PM
    On a whim, I opened the XDI case as much as I could without breaking some "glue sealed" fasteners. From what I could see, there's no jumper or DIP switch that's easily accessible that would change any sort of mode. So back to waiting to hear from Electromotive (which based on past experience, one shouldn't hold their breath.)

    More potential info, that I've found here:

    "This hall sensor is compatible with Electromotive's TEC-s, TEC-s200, TEC-gt, TEC-gt200 and TEC-3r engine management systems and the XDi-2 and XDi200 Ignition systems."

    While it's sales info, not straight from Electromotive - it does imply that a Hall sensor may not be compatible with an original XDI (XDI-2 at minimum). So.. hmm....
     
  9. ginoBBi512

    ginoBBi512 Formula Junior

    Oct 9, 2016
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    Why not just put everything back to factory, I mean, whats the point of an aftermarket ignition, the gains are minimal if any ? The factory set up is very reliable going all the way back to 76 . Its no fun not being able to enjoy your car. Just my 2 cents. Maybe think about a reliable Nitrous System , to use once in a while.

    Thank you,
     
  10. thorn

    thorn F1 Rookie
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    That's a fair question. The answer: because the car had these components installed when I bought it, and didn't come with the digiplex units, distributors, etc in a box of spares. So I'm working with what I have to work with.
     
  11. GordonC

    GordonC F1 Rookie
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    Speaking as someone who is about to install an XDI system - the factory system is perhaps 1980s reliable, if one could buy 1980 factory parts. The poor reproduction components available instead now are not nearly so reliable - bad distributor caps, bad rotors, bad extenders, unavailable or astronomically priced digiplex boxes. I've been chasing a high rpm misfire on my 84 QV for a couple of years, and have spent more than the cost of an XDI in replacing everything but the digiplex boxes that have made little long term difference.

    Rather than spend that much again, or more if I decide to have the digiplex boxes rebuilt or replaced, I'll just go with the XDI which in general (several hundred systems sold to Ferrari owners, mostly 308s, by NFF) have been extremely reliable, not to minimize thorn's current problems. If I were inclined to take even more control I'd go with a programmable ECU and just install the ignition side for now, but the mostly plug and play aspect of the XDI gets the job done very well for the many owners out there. I did a lot of searching here before ordering the XDI, and the feedback over many years is very positive.

    Cheers,
    Gordon
     
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  13. thorn

    thorn F1 Rookie
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    I get the position of "orginalists", believe me. But as Gordon noted, it's not as if cars with original equipment don't have problems with ignition - I've seen people searching for a digiplex (or a rebuilder), replacing rotor caps with crap components from Superformance, etc etc. And I have sympathy for such problems - it's an old car, and perfect OEM components aren't always available.

    But as my reply to Gino mentioned - I really don't have a choice. Buying and reinstalling the original ignition system really isn't an option for me. I know the XDI works for 308 owners, so that's the target I have to aim for.

    So - yes, the XDI system can create a challenge. But to be honest, I'm not sure that my problem isn't a fuel pump - more suited to a Miata - that a previous owner installed. I've certainly had to deal with other horrors that the PO did (see my old thread on cams and valves and orange sealant.) I suppose I'll learn more tomorrow, on the next test drive. And if it results in a 3rd tow, I'll probably be buying an oscilloscope. ;)
     
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  14. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    I bet that new Bosch fuel pump fixes everything.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
  15. ginoBBi512

    ginoBBi512 Formula Junior

    Oct 9, 2016
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    Oh my, I did not realize that, with that being said, Im always on Ebay, browsing to see what parts are still available for the 3x8 s, Ive seen the Digiplex s for about 1200.00 new/ used OEM, as well as factory caps rotors, wires etc. Parts are not cheap for sure . I can see why you would want to get your XDIs, fixed, Im assuming they are not under warranty , I think someone said, new ones are 2500.00 . Anyhow, I do hope you can get things sorted out.

    Thank you
     
  16. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

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    I still think the (original) problem is fuel. As I said in a earlier post, initially I believed ignition but that video turned me around.

    I understand the issue with finding/paying for original ignition parts to replace an aftermarket ignition. I've been through that with other old vehicles! :( But to be honest, in several cases I found that a "modern" aftermarket electronic system didn't perform as well as the OEM system (which sometimes included points/mechanical advance)! ;) Of course, the e-systems don't (usually) require periodic maintenance once set.

    FWIW, currently-made ignition points basically suck compared to those made when they were "normal" parts.
     
  17. GordonC

    GordonC F1 Rookie
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    The full XDI kit as priced by Nick's is $1650.00 https://www.nicksforzaferrari.net/engine-management--direct-coil-ignition-systems.html The kit includes the XDI box, 4 coils, crank sensor and trigger wheel for the 308, wiring harness, tach adapter, plug wires, relays, and more.

    For just the XDI box by itself, it's listed on the Electromotive site at $599. https://electromotive.com/our-products/xdi-ignition/
     
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  18. TurtleFarmer

    TurtleFarmer Karting

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    FWIW, none of the discussion of XDI v Digi is gonna get @thorn back running again. He's now 6 pages into this thread and discussing the merits of OEM vs Aftermarket aren't gonna get that car reliably back on the road quickly and inexpensively. We *all* know that sick feeling when your car isn't working right and you're anxious that you'll never figure it out without lots of time & money.

    We're still offering him (mostly) the things he's already tried and eliminated or planning to try. I'm hopeful (like @mike996 ) that it's fuel but I never could quite trust electrons fiddlin' around inside a box playing the maestro to the engine orchestra (which is funny cuz that literally is my job to build such things).

    Really hoping Sunday is a breakthru day with two great "fuel" fixes and one "ignition" fix on the test bench....
     
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  19. kiwiokie

    kiwiokie Formula Junior

    Aug 19, 2013
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    Yeah I am anxious for the next installment! My money is on fuel pump :)


    Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat
     
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  20. thorn

    thorn F1 Rookie
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    Sunday morning testing...

    Drove the car in city traffic, plus some 45-50mph areas for around 40-50 mins or so. Car ran beautifully, though I constantly had that "wait for it... wait for it..." feeling in the pit of my stomach. Came back home, pulled back into the garage. Fuel relay is barely warm to the touch - good news there, that's an improvement. So - Test Stage 1 passed. Now we wait a bit.

    Set a timer for 45 mins, and browsed Fchat for a bit. Once the timer went off, back out for Stage 2 test drive. Started a stopwatch and pulled out of the garage. Quick 3 min trip to the gas station was uneventful. Filled up the tank, and almost headed for the highway. Instead, I decided to drive around the neighborhood just a bit more first. At the 6 min mark - car died. No warning, no slow dying - just suprise!, it's off now.

    Pulled into a parking lot, had a cigarette. Touched the mag sensor, and could barely keep my finger against it from the heat. With only about a mile or so to get home, drove very slowly and made it back to the garage. Left the car idling for a couple of minutes - and there it happened, died again.

    Placed a thermometer against the mag sensor: 120F. Checked the resistance on the mag sensor: 720 Ohms (again, that's barely - BUT above acceptable spec for resistance).

    Next step: going to let the car cool overnight, then try Aaron's suggestion with a hair dryer on the mag sensor to see how quickly I can make it fail. At the point, I'm almost completely convinced that it's the problem. Which will be potentially troubling to solve, unless I can successfully talk to someone at Electromotive about how to get the XDI to recognize Hall sensor input.

    In any case, that was the morning. Girlfriend is now preparing breakfast: homemade salmon gravlax on bagels. Can't wait. :D
     
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  21. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    Talked to Nick last night about this... He thinks the older XDi units don't work well with the hall sensors... Bummer..
    Might have to just keep using a mag sensor. I personally don't like the ones electromotive supplies. I think ZF has some. Digikey, newark or mouser should have easy to search catalogs.

    Electromotive is a right pita to get in touch with due to the shutdown going on... Fun times!
     
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  22. derekw

    derekw Formula 3

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    I recall the Porsche people talking about using Ford mag sensors instead of the originals.
     
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  23. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

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    It'll be interesting to hear the results of the hair dryer test - 120F isn't very hot in an engine compartment so I would expect the mag sensor to be able to take far more than that.

    Gotta admit this is really fascinating stuff! Though I suspect you would choose a different word or words to describe the situation! :mad: The "shutoff" you describe makes me think ignition; the video makes me think fuel! o_O
     
  24. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    Could be the XDi or the DFU units... That unfortunately requires having electromotive checking it out... They are not running on a timely schedule at the moment.... Then again.. Who is?
     
  25. thorn

    thorn F1 Rookie
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    Agreed on all counts. I've tried doing diag and replacing the least expensive (and potentially problematic) parts first, before moving onto more expensive stuff. Obviously the fuel pump wasn't cheap, but I'm ok with this choice - given that the pump I had wasn't exactly appropriate. Given the temp of the fuel relay dropped substantially, I think it was a solid decision. I've already ordered another mag sensor, which apparently has be redesigned due to previous issues with heat. We'll see how it goes.

    If it ultimately comes to "You need a new XDI unit" - well, so be it. I'll buy one and put a hall sensor on it. I've certainly seen PCM units go bad on Hondas (what I work on all day), so the XDI being bad isn't out of the realm of possibility. I don't want to "waste" money just using the parts cannon, but I also want a car that runs. ;)
     
  26. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    Electromotive will do a bench test and check of the unit, think it's about $70. Just have to ship and wait......

    Going from memory... The DFU coils are GM...
     
  27. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    Good call on the fuel pump... CIS fuel pumps have vastly different flow/pressure rates then most all pumps. From memory it's something like 100-120psi @ 2L/min
    They also draw lots of amps.
     

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