Ok, we're all upset about the outcome of the race. I grant you that even though they finished 1-2 and had a very strong race Was it Massa's fault? I have a tough time figuring out how Massa could be to blame aside from the way he allowed the pass and the post race interview where he showed clearly he wasn't very good at "bending" the truth. Was it Alonso's fault? Ok, Alonso complained. But so what? Drivers complain all the time. He didn't force Massa to step out of the way. Maybe it's in his contract that we don't know about but someone signed the contract on Ferrari's end too. So, it's difficult to see how Alonso could be blamed aside from being a PITA. If being a PITA was a reason to not be an F1 driver, half the grid would have no drivers. Someone could have told Alonso to get on with the program if he wants to win -- and they didn't. And, are you going to blame Alonso for having a better year than Massa in the first half of the season? Was it Domenicali's fault? Well.... someone gave the go ahead to tell Massa to slow up. If he didn't know, then someone sure overstepped their bounds. But wait... Did Domenicali just come up with this all by his own as the race ran it's course? Somehow, I don't think so. He may have pulled the trigger but this seems to me to be too well planned. That means, this entire scenerio was preconceived a long time ago. Massa knew that he had to be "X" number of places or seconds ahead of Alonso in any given race or give it up. I'm sure they had an agreement that given where the season is (and how poor its been), that Alonso has the best chance to get the title crown and if Massa can't clearly outperform him, he has to give up the position. So I think blaming Alonso for this mess is a bit over the top. He didn't reach into Massa's cockpit and stop him. He may have helped in the planning but the team principals still can say "no" to the Spaniard any time they want. He's not completely innocent... just not the guilty party.
The team are all guilty. Massa for parking his car, making it obvious to everyone what he was doing. Smedley for openly talking about it and confirming what everyone thought. Alonso for being willing to win like that. We all know he has done much worse, Singapore... Domicelli for running a loose ship and making stupid decisions. And we the F1 fans were robbed of seeing a real sporting contest and were served reality TV instead. Ferrari will be punished for this one. They have brought the "sport" into ill repute and they must for the sake of F1 be held accountable. Do you guys really think Enzo is looking down on this mess and smiling? I think not...
You got it right except for the last one. Enzo would love it. Finish 1/2, get the maximum points, and to heck what the drivers think.
They had a 1-2 finish legitimately in the bag and they threw it all away for a messily 7 extra points for Alonso. You guys really think Enzo would have done that? I give him much more credit than that.
I am not saying he would not have taken advantage but he would have done it in a much more subtle way. Racing has always been about blurring the lines and sailing close to the wind with regard to the rules. Ferrari was very good at this but yesterday was a joke. If you are going to break the rules do it with style and grace. Ferrari failed yesterday and I think Alsonso and Massa will be at minimum excluded from the results and forfeit the points from yesterday's race. Do you think it was worth it just to get Alonso an extra 7 points? Everything was going perfectly and Ferrari still found a way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory
This is a tough one but I agree with MSC's take. We all saw the Vettel/Webber debacle and then shortly after, the Button/Hamilton "almost" debacle. At that point in the race, Alonso had more pace than Massa, and Vettel had moments showing more pace than both of them. Massa was given the opportunity, albeit begrudgingly, to build a gap. He did-and then was reeled back in and was clearly holding up his team mate. Given the circumstances, it was the right thing to do for the team. I would hope a driver didn't need to be reminded of the bigger picture- but all too often- ego trumps logic. If Massa were faster or equal to Alonso- I'd be on Massa's side- but he wasn't at that point. It could have been handled better. Smedely, despite being the most transparent on the radio, was the only one I thought "sold" a reasonably composed response .
I don't see the reason why someone has to be villainized over this. By virtue of points alone, Alonso should be considered #1. He was faster, and it was in the team's interest to put him in front of Massa to preserve the 1-2. Don't forget that at the end, Vettel had closed the gap to Massa. If Alonso wasn't able to get around Massa for the lead, he would have been sandwiched in between Massa and Vettel, which could have compromised Ferrari's 1-2 finish through an incident or a pass. The team gave Massa the chance to hold station, but he couldn't maintain the margin. I wish Alonso could have taken care of business without the intervention of the team, but that's as much an F1 issue as it is his problem. The net result is, Ferrari came away with 43 points this weekend. I'm not convinced that, had the two drivers continued on without team orders, the result would have been the same.
The net result will not be known until Ferrari go before the WMSC and I would expect that those 43 points will be gone and then some. They may as well have raced and took each other out. All of this for 7 points more in Alonso's bag. That must be some contract he has...
I don't think they've thrown anything away yet, that is unless a penalty has come out that I've missed. Instead I would say 7 points in Formula 1 are worth $100,000.
You're confusing "couldn't" with "didn't need to". He didn't need to because THE TEAM didn't want to risk damaging one or both of the cars when they knew all along that Massa had to give way. It was all preconceived in advance. Ask yourself this: If Massa was so good, so fast, and so upset, why didn't he stick his nose under Alonso's rear wing the rest of the race instead of almost falling back into 3rd?
My take is perhaps not as harsh as to call them "idiots" but I certainly believe that Smedley should have just refrained from that post-pass radio communication. Refraining from making the comment would not have changed what was already obviously a team order, but it would have limited the evidence which will be presented before the WMSC. Put another way, the action spoke for itself, the subsequent comment was an admission against interest.
Easy. Why bother. Makes for great racing. I'm actually shocked at those who believe a points consideration is worth the continued devaluation of the sport, especially when it involves altering a deserving victory. Imagine if the car stays good, Fred injures himself on the treadmill and can't compete for the rest of the season. I'll almost hope Phil loses WDC by 6 points.
This is Ri di cu lous. Seriously, FA couldn't pass him. They then told him to back off and try again when Massa's hands were tied, since FA is such a bad asz poptart/watje that he needs the boss to subdue the teammate. Likewise with the tantrums he was throwing at McL because they wouldn't hold LH down. Ask your self - if you were going to disobey team orders wouldn't it make sense to keep and defend the position, rather than give it up and then act like an imbecile by trailing. He wasn't falling into 3rd. He was falling away from 1st. FA is becoming ri di cu lous and F is ignorant for downgrading into the MS era (lack of) mentality.
Who is to blame for the 1-2 finish and putting them in the best position to go after both title's? The whole TEAM.......it's nothing new: PAST TEAM ORDERS INCIDENTS Jerez 1997: McLaren order David Coulthard to let Mika Hakkinen past to win Australia 1998: McLaren order Coulthard to let Hakkinen past to win Belgium 1998: Jordan order Ralf Schumacher not to race Damon Hill for the lead Austria 2002: Ferrari order Rubens Barrichello to let Michael Schumacher past to win Monaco 2007: McLaren order Lewis Hamilton not to challenge Fernando Alonso for the race win Brazil 2007: Ferrari manipulate Felipe Massa's pit stop to put Kimi Raikkonen into the lead so he can win the world title Germany 2008: Heikki Kovalainen lets McLaren team-mate Hamilton through so he can win the race following an error in team tactics Singapore 2008: Renault order Nelson Piquet to crash to cause a safety car period that helps Alonso win China 2008: Raikkonen hands Massa second place behind Hamilton so he is in a better championship position heading into the final race.
^Excellent history of team orders. I believe there are even more examples. Wasn't Petersen ordered not to pass Mario a time or two in the 1978 season? And I think there were probably some similar incidents in the pre-radios era. Jack.
I don't know who's to "blame", but we wouldn't be having this conversation if... Alonso weren't a prima donna Massa weren't a sorehead Smedley weren't a blabbermouth and Domenicalli were any kind of leader. Other than that, the Scuderia is in good hands.
I agree with you on this. Enzo was all about the WCC. He did not give a rat's azz about the drivers. As long as they were going to finish 1-2 he would not have intervened. It was just wrong on all sides and even though I am a big Ferrari fan, I would not be upset to see them lose the points for this race.
I agree with Curtis. I wrote this on another forum and thought I should post this here too: What I don't get is why they needed to cheat? They already had a 1-2 finish in the bag. Wouldn't the TEAM (Manufacturer) get the same amount of points if it was Massa then Alonso? In my opinion, Alonso is a sore loser and a bad winner!!! He couldn't settle for the fact that the TEAM already had a 1-2 win in the bag and that he was going to come in 2nd so he complains and forces the team to issue an order to Massa. Then when he won, he stood there on the podium smiling and waving as if he did it all! As if it was HE who held P1 for the entire race and won it all by himself. The way Massa pulled over was his way of signaling his protest at that order. He did not acknowledge over the radio as he was instructed because he didn't like what he was being told. From what I've read here and else where, people say that clearly Massa was slower and give examples of Alonso's times and that Vettel was closing in on Massa at the tail end of the race, but I don't buy that!! From my point of view, if Alonso was faster, then why couldn't he pass Massa? And regarding what people were saying that Vettel was closing in on Massa at the end...I think Massa was PISSED at that order and he had to deal with that in addition to holding Vettel off - which he DID!! At the press conference (still fumming from the order) Massa showed his support for the team. If Alonso was a team player he would have just settled for 2nd place and defend his position against Vettel. I feel sorry for how things turned out for Massa. And I could definitely feel his pain and anger, but at least he's a team player!! Just my thoughts. Bill P.
