sold my modern ferrari - considering a 330 GT. Any advice?

Okay -- first couple questions:

Have you been to "crappy old car" school? IE have you had to live with an old car with points ignition, improperly set up carburetors, and at least a decade of deferred maintenance? Are you prepared for at least 3 years of getting into the car and it (the heater fan, the ignition, the windshield wipers, the dome light, brakes, starter motor, turn signal) not working? Do you like the smell of gasoline on your hands and possibly clothes after a relaxing drive? When an old car drives by, do you instinctively gauge how rich/lean it is running and if it is or isn't burning oil just from the smell of the exhaust? Do you know how to use a fire extinguisher to put out an underhood fire? *Have* you put out an underhood fire? Do you have a mild hearing loss? Do you mind acquiring a mild hearing loss? Do you mind if something breaks and it takes 2 months to get replacement parts from another country, and those parts may or may not fit/work?

If you're not really sure about these, I'd suggest you get your feet wet with a slightly less expensive older car, something like a nice Volvo 544. They're easy to work on and have a similar parts supply as an older Ferrari. Don't, for instance, get an old mustang or old Benz and expect that the spare parts supply is comparable to an old Ferrari.

Now -- I could be totally wrong about old Ferraris -- they may smell like roses, be whisper quiet while underway, have an extensive network of dealerships that will support your 50 year old car, and be as reliable as my Honda C70.

My experience with owning old cars is that they're at part affliction and part addiction.

 

True and well said. You only fail to mention the perfect unpredictability of the maintenance and repair bills. And they can be huge.

 

I've tried to. Tried to be polite about it too. You know - live and let live. Peace, man.

It's too bad you couldn't allay the prejudices and had to claim you know it all. I have tried to make an effort to see your point of view and gently proposed that there are other views out there but you are just wailing on your little soap box. I wish you all the best nonetheless.


Onno

 

What do you tell me the car is?

 

No doubt it is a nice car and very fun to drive, and probably quite attractive to boot.

Some people are probably upset that cars that look like other cars (but aren't) dilute some aspect of the value of those other cars. There can't be any doubt that any owner of a true AC Cobra is assumed to be driving a replica. I'm not sure what the "cost" to owners of the true thing are, but it isn't nothing. After all, this value is the basis of trademark law.

There is also the issue of outright fraud. While the first couple owners of a "tribute" car may declare it as such, I wouldn't be surprised if in the future an unscrupulous owner / broker *didn't* declare it as such. Again, the more fakes there are out there, the more the danger of getting a fake devalues the originals.

Also, many people are upset about "losing" another "donor" car. I'm ambivalent about this. Certainly in the past there were many rusty rat infested heaps that were put back on the road as another GTO tribute. I wouldn't feel better if the heap were turned into washing machines, though. And, lately, it seems as though the definition of "heap" has been redefined to be anything with a valuable motor, and possibly a valuable serial number and titlable chassis.


In a perfect world, your car would be made with a 99.5% new chassis, all new mechanical systems (be they new Ferrari V12s from the 599 or an exact duplicate of a tipo 168). And it should be titled as a hillman minx (or whatever the car was that donated .5% of its frame and it's title as a car).

And lastly, it should look similar to, but not exactly, like an older car. That's the difference between a "clone" and a "hotrod". If it is something new that only looks similar to something old.

Otherwise, you're just driving a $300 copy of Chelsea's wedding dress.

 

I think was upsets people is not so much the cutting up of wrecks for there motors or running gear.
But the rape of good going cars for there motors and running gear,as was the case of the light blue 250GTE.
Or destroying a 250pf which is now limited in its numbers.

 

Yeah, I can understand his pain regarding his 250GTE -- I'd feel the same way if that was done to my "clone". But hey, you shouldn't go around blaming others if you choose to sell it in the first place.

I guess I walked into a hot thread when I was just trying to convey to the original poster that a rebody can be a great way to get into vintage Ferraris, but I didn't think it was appropriate that this guy start ranting at me like I was the one who cut up his beloved.

I was in the midst of restoring a Daytona when the prices went through the roof and I realized that I'd be fool not to restore it to perfection -- so I sold it and found my current car. I much prefer a driver to the over restored originals that people are afraid to drive on the road anymore -- when was the last time anyone saw a real California Spyder out and about. Lussos and Daytonas are likely to be the next trailer queens.

My car was done in the late 80's using a basket case 365GT2+2 (I haven't met anyone who had good things to say about this overweight model even when it was new). I wouldn't advocate cutting up a running 250, but is anyone seriously going to mourn the loss of a few Queen Mothers, ever?

It's all about keeping perspective and not letting the purists and elitist ruin the fun of owning, driving (and discussing) vintage cars -- whether 100% original or not.

 

I'd put my hand up for a strong RHD Queen Mary, great car for a week rally with the wife.

 

Truth is that almost every Ferrari has been considered "disposable" at one time or an other. A lot of great cars have been lost because of it. The fact that some want to learn from that should be appreciated not scorned.

 

Maybe true, but then again if there were no Cobra copies, would most people even know what it was? (maybe "hey, nice mustang cobra").

Not in today's world. A car's history can be research to death on sites like Fchat. Even the "rare" American production muscle cars have tons of history easily available online.

Yes, I agree. I would've definitely built/bought such a tribute car instead. That was my original plan, but no one does this. I called Mark Gerisch (Genaddi Design Group) to do another one-off of the SWB California, but he was too busy ramping up to customize modern cars.

If it's good enough for Jay Leno, then it's good enough for me:

"Mark Gerisch was a principal in "M & L Specialties" (the "M" part...), who built this alloy Cobra repilca for Leno".
"Nice to know that even though he has the means for a 3000 car he still holds on to old faithful a replica by Mark Gerisch."
http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88909

(or maybe Jay doesn't live up to the purists standards either

 

Satisfactory repair of my 330 2+2 (1964 Series I) was impossible to do with what Hagerty was willing to pay, so they declared it a total and paid me the agreed value.

A hard fact: Salvaging a wrecked or badly neglected model with limited upside appreciation potential is throwing money away unless you're rich enough to absorb the hit or plan to keep it forever.

I hope that my 330 ended up with someone who plans a well-executed rebody. I'd much rather see #5409 reappear in that role than learn that it was broken up for parts.

 

To redirect back to the original post by Matt and answer a few of his questions

Since the weather was great this week, my 330 GT served as reliable daily transportation for my 28 mile round trip commute.

Yes, it requires a bit of concentration but that makes for all the fun. Nothing like hearing the fuel pump clicking and then the sound of the V12 coming alive early in the morning. Quick and agile enough to have fun in the traffic on I-65 between Nashville and Franklin.

And the seats are comfortable with room for Sarah Beth (age 11) and Emily (age 9) in the back.

No service troubles this week as she finally appears to be fully sorted after 9 months of tending to the deferred maintenance of previous owners.

Doug
S/N 8523

 

Mike
I guess you havn't met me but I for one think Queens are great cars, and I mourn their loss. A well sorted one driven by a competant driver can be a lot of fun and fast. I think Bryan P, Mark D and a pile of others would agree. The rear suspension can "bind up" under hard cornering on bumpy roads but a good driver can compensate for that quirk, and anyway it adds to the FUN. These cars are engaging to drive not like modern cars.
John

 

Mikegt calls his car what? A re-body? Unless it was re-bodied by the factory or other in period well known shops did the work on a wrecked 250 California, his car is a replica with Ferrari running gear.
Why are purists always blamed or made out to be some fanatical crazies that should not impose their views on others? I don't think one needs to be purist to understand that all original built Enzo's cars should be preserved and not misused and dismantled. These are special cars and must be preserved not cut up to make some one's fantasy car, a fake. It's a shame to see a good or a bad needy cars with their guts pulled out to make a fake 250 California or a 250 GTO. The fakes that there are already out there, great let the owners enjoy them if that's the kind of car they want. But to butcher a near perfect light blue 250 GTE that recently got purchased at the RM sale and later to have it's carcass sold off on Ebay, that was a real shame. Especially knowing that I was so close in saving it from the dumb as* that used it's engine for his race car. I feel that it's our duty as Ferrari owners, admirers, historians and enthusiasts to protect the marque's heritage. Keep these cars intact for the future generations to enjoy just as Enzo wanted.

Geno.

 

+1

You either can or can't afford a 250 California. If you can't, so be it, but leave the poor 365 GT 2+2 alone.

 

Make that +2. Thanx. w/ smiles Jimmy

 

Seriously, you guys make me laugh

 

Because AC didn't defend the cobra shape from imitators, now *all* cobras are copies. If you have to open the hood and protest that yours is, in fact, a real one, every single time you get gas or groceries, then there is nothing really different between yours and the copies.


And about Leno, he could probably pull off Pebble Beach in Crockett's "Daytona" while wearing ironic overalls. When you're an icon, you can pull off signifiers that others can't simply because you outshine everything else.


I personally don't really care, even about the perfectly restored car that was raped for it's motor. I suspect that the raped car is probably still on the road, hopefully with an interesting motor like an old SHO v6 (at least it would have the right number of valves, right?). Eventually there will be an open source tipo 168 motor where you put 12 blocks of aluminum into your CNC mill and get out a motor that fits into your particular car.


On the whole, it is good that you kept a worn out, wrecked old Fcar on the road. Hopefully whoever chopped it up kept the glass and the indicator lenses and the interior so that another car might stay on the road intact.


I suspect people here would have less to say about things like your car if either you *didn't* call it a Ferrari (that's my hotrod. Most of it was originally a +2 fcar and rust) or if you had sent the chassis to italy and said to the panel beaters "I want something *more* beautiful than a california. Here's the frame and a stack of sheet aluminum and a blank check."


And lastly, to the scolds who get totally freaked about the less valuable cars getting chewed up and spit out as replicas -- if it weren't for this sort of brokering / breaking, people like TomS wouldn't have been able to stay in business all these decades supplying bits and pieces for your car. Just ask anyone who keeps their Iso or NSU on the road how easy it is to find parts... The market needs market makers.

 

It's not.

soooo, I should adopt an attitude where I am thankful that the demand for fakes - whereby there are now more fake GTOs running around than there are real PF Coupes - keeps remaining GTEs supplied w/ spares? (of course at the rate GTEs are being cannibalized for fakes, GTEs won't need them, either). If a car is beyond saving (which is a whole debate by itself) or has been wrecked so badly that it is only useful for parts, then so be it. But at what point, cdu, would it become a tragedy for you (if there is such a point for you, given your position on the 90 point GTE that was raped for its motor) for another 365GT2+2 to be turned into a fake? When there are only 100 originals left? 50? 25? Of, as our astute friend mikegt has pointed out, they're all pieces of ****, so let's turn them all into *****in' Californias? In all seriousness, cdu, I think we're past the point where we can afford to be indifferent about chopping up real cars into fakes; we're talking about very low production numbers for the get-go, the attrition thru use/wrecks for over 40 years, and then the fake-industry for the last 23 or so years. This leads most educated guesses for surviving cars for each of the early 2+2 models to be in the several hundreds at most. So when does it stop?

"scolds" and "purists"? You guys are on a vintage Ferrari enthusiasts forum, and you're surprised when the enthusiasts and owners here who care about preserving the dwindling number of these "less valuable" cars get lathered up when you advocate or are indifferent to turning real Ferraris into fakes? And then top it off w/ name-calling? And citing "value" doesn't really cut it as an argument, at least for those who are passionate about the marque. There is a whole website of guys at tomyang.net who restore/maintain "less valuable" 2+2s even where it makes no financial sense for the simple fact that an old Ferrari is worth it for more reasons than $$.

Julio, it took over 60 posts before "purists" was used as a perjorative. that is probably a record.

 

You may also want to consider a 365 GT4 2+2, basically the same "old school" Ferrari V12 GT experience for a lot less. Mine drives better than all of the C/4s I've driven and I found it more comfortable than a 330 GT. And the A/C works...

 

Poor Matt Andrews.

He came to the site asking for some advice and all he got was a front-row seat to a barroom brawl. I think he has very politely stepped away as wisely understood that there was no easy way to come out unscathed out of this one. Probably will never ask anyone, anything else as a result of this.
Vociferous arguments in pro and con of butchery and maiming of F. cars, persist along with the criticism of unscrupulous and shadowy types selling four barrel Weber carbs at midnight or at noon. You choose.

My humble opinion is that a "sticky" should be created and titled "barroom brawl". There, experts, young turks, pundits, rail birds and soap box carriers, can voice their opinions about whether these issues are right or wrong.

What I really think is wrong, is to disrespect someone's question, seeking advice from people that are supposed to know, as previously experienced in a particular car or another, not about the merits or demerits about chopping up, hot rodding, recycling and name-calling. What had started out as a very nice and interesting topic, developed into a disaster. Hijacking professionals. It is flat out impolite...and Matt, I am sorry you were subjected to this.

Just my two cents.

Regards, Alberto

 

Matt, great post. I'll defer to all the vintage Ferrari experts here on the specifics, but I completely get where you're coming from.

Where I can speak from experience is that vintage cars are a unique joy to look at, drive and own. They also get a lot of love and respect on the road -- completely the opposite of the modern cars which can be perceived more as useless status symbols.

You just have to be very accepting of old school technology, safety standards and performance. In particular, modern brakes are amazing compared to anything from 40+ years ago. They do remarkable stuff like actually stopping a car.

That's an all-time great FChat photo.

It reminds me of MalcolmB in San Diego who drives his Daytonas and 275 GTB extensively -- one of my automotive heroes -- while most of the modern Ferrari appliances around here huddle under car covers.

I would suggest a Porsche 356 coupe as a smart transition from modern to classic.

It meets all of Matt's stated requirements, can be bought in top shape for half of the 330 cost, won't depreciate, has good spares availability and yet is a great intro to what it's like to live with an older car that needs frequent tuning, greasing, etc.

Clearly it's not the vintage Ferrari V12 experience, but it's a smart way to test drive the vintage car ownership experience while remaining financially solvent. It can be reliable transportation, which is actually a big deal if you're bringing the wife and (very small) kids along.

And, if the quest for perfection turns out to be frustrating goal, you can just turn it into a seriously competitive vintage racer. Or you can sell it for what you paid and get into the Ferrari 330 if the old car bug turns out to be chronic rather than acute.

My two pfenninge...

 

I remember reading a Porsche 365 owner's manual I found in a used book shop and being amazed at the number and frequency of periodic maintenance chores. And I'm no kid only used to 15k oil changes and "sealed for life" bearings.

 

True, modern cars have spoiled us in many ways, deprived us in many others.

But people used to drive 356s every day, race them in deserts and mountins, etc., so the cars were tough. The more interesting change is probably what has happened to us.

 

Matt, Deviating from the Ferrari option and your original question, and as much as I love 356s, 911's of the early persuasions, are really nice too, and unless you tread into RS territory, will not break the bank. I recently drove a 1972 "S" for about 600 miles and it was an absolutely delightful car to drive. It made the best noise (2nd best...) and it certainly could keep up with 430's on country roads at not more than 60mph. Drawback, as in any of these cars, is to find a nice, very original example that has not suffered any "improvements". Plus, you can do all your maintenance. There are incredible books with all the possible information and parts galore, just like stuff for my Dino
Lots of bang for between $35K for a "T" up to $65K for a very nice "S" that you can use for 100% of your daily driving. Contrary to what people say, S's are not death in city driving, clearly not for NYC, just keep in 1st or 2nd above 4K rpm, as they are nowhere on the cam below that, and the aural pleasure is fantastic. It has some quirks, as any 70's car, and it tops my list after Dino.
Give one a try, you will love it.
Regards, Alberto