Some assistance with private jet costs

For those of you that saw the Ferrari Michael post about "private jet or not?" This thread was designed to give a little more detail into some of the costs of ownership and operation. I am not in the field, but I do have the ability to help with pricing for charters, ownership, and management. Just like those that provide auction prices for cars, I am more than happy to pull numbers for those interested in a little air time.
I attached the rundown for costs to operate a Lear60, Challenger 604, and a Gulfstream IV SP hourly and on a yearly rate. Remember fuel prices change daily. There is a lot to it, but I think it might be helpful.
I will keep an eye on the thread or feel free to pm for assistance.
Enjoy your flight
View attachment LearChallengerGulfstream.pdf

 

I based most of the data off of Ferrari Michaels post, ( most of the direct info was for his situation) but I wanted to open it up to all interested parties.

A few additions to clear a few things up:
Firstly, a Lear & Gulfstream are apples & oranges, with the Lear being a "mid", as a mid-size cabin, and the Gulfstream being a "large", as in large size cabin. Basically, the 2 aircraft are intended for totally different missions with the Gulfstream having significantly greater range than the Lear.
I also put the Challenger in the comparison as it is a "wide cabin aircraft" (larger space than the Lear), but has a shorter range than the Gulfstream. Also, the Challenger is significantly less expensive to operate than the Gulfstream. If most of Michaels mission is within the E.U., he should consider either a Hawker 800XP or a Lear 60, as these aircraft will accomplish almost all of his missions with ease. He can then charter a large cabin for the rare times he needs to fly long distances, as this will be much more economical.

2) Also, chartering is a viable way to recoup some of the fixed costs in owning an aircraft. The key is to manage the hourly rate you receive, as well as the average leg the aircraft will fly during a charter trip. Much like a car, short hops (short legs) from one destination to another are tough on an airplane, as it does most of it's "work" taking off and landing. Quite frequently, there are "short leg" fees that are charged to charter customers who want to fly these types of legs, especially for large cabin aircraft such as a Gulfstream or Challengers. Most owners will actually reject these trips:
- if they have a mid-size (Hawker, Lear 60, Citation X, III, VII), they will look for an average leg length of ~ 1.5 hours.
- if large cabin (Gulfstream, Challenger, Falcon 900/2000), they'll want an avg of 2+ hours.
Naturaly, the first leg of a trip is often short as its considered a "positioning" leg to pick up the passengers, as is the last leg (called the 'backhaul') for the aircraft to return home after dropping off the passengers at the end of the trip. The legs in the middle of the positioning & backhaul legs (called 'live' legs) must be long enough to make up for these 2 legs.

Small aircraft are meant for short hops (<1.5 avg leg) such as Citation II, V, so these owners will accept short leg trips as it's their planes mission.

Any other info needed just post up or drop me a pm

 

Wow, very interesting.

I've always wondered the true total factoring everything in. Any idea what it is for larger jets? Even up to 737 and larger? Does the airline industry have the same rates/cost per hour as a private plane? I've always tried to do the math and just on fuel alone (unless airlines get it cheaper) I've never been able to make the math come out for a profit for any airline?? Even if there is it is so small for the amount of time an energy put in... Im guessing that the fuel prices I'm using is waay to high for the airlines...

Here is what I figure, I usually fly back and forth from London to Houston/DFW, 9 times out of 10 its on a Boeing 777, and this math is for a full flight, where am I going wrong?

253 passengers in coach @ an average price of $650 a ticket = $164,450
60 passengers in 1st @ an average price of $2500 a ticket = $150,000

Total for passengers = $314450

Fuel, 777 can hold about 45,000 Gallons, and with Jet A in Houston being about $5 = $225,000

Difference $89,450 Profit, with nothing else factored in over an 8-9 Hour flight

now factor in Pilot, co-pilot and 13 flight attendants?
Then the maintenance and insurance and taxes/landing fees for a 777?? Just by looking at your PDF they add up very quickly.

If a G4 is about $5K an hour... a 777 must be higher... or is it not? Taking fuel into account only it works out to $28,125 an hour for fuel only??

 

The distance from DFW to LHR is about 4200 miles, so your fuel burn in gallons is about 20% less than a full load.

Airlines used to pay about a buck a gallon when jet fuel retail was about $2.00 a gallon. With the recent jacking up and down and fuel hedging there is no way to tell what a given airline is paying for fuel nowadays. The IATA web site shows that the price of JetA at the refinery is $1.56/gallon right now. Likey that the airlines aren't paying much more than that. Most of the fuel comes via pipelines to places like DFW, so there isn't much cost for transportaton. $5.00 a gallon is what the FBO is sticking it to you for your Lear Jet, the airlines don't pay anywhere near that.

Not that the airlines are making money, they probably aren't, but it isn't that bad. If they have more than an 80% load factor they are making money on that flight. From the flying I've done recently, they have taken a lot of aircraft out of service, and planes are flying pretty well loaded....

 

Seth I attached a file for you, but to keep it consistent I used the same super high cost of fuel I used in the original pdf.-When fuel was at a high last year. That was to show the op more of a worst case scenario. So to keep the numbers matching I carried it over here as well. JetA is cheaper now, but the numbers would really be swayed if I changed them.
I attached 737 vs Boeing Business Jet (BBJ)
The BBJ costs more, is much longer, and has a signficantly greater range. The attachment is simply for enjoyment. I don't know much about airliners, except they don't "pay at the pump", if you will. Obviously the airline has long-term contracts with the oil companies, so they pay much, much less... The other difference is that airliners are like The Terminator, "They do not stop", Board the pax, fly, unload pax, refuel/clean, board pax, fly... rinse, wash, repeat. If the airplane is in the hangar, things are bad. Also, because the aircraft are in the air so much, they actually run better maintenance wise compared to Corporate Aircraft. One of those inexplicable things: airplanes like to fly, they're happier when they are flying. Take a perfectly good aircraft that gives no trouble, ground it for 6 months to refit the interior & maybe install a modified component, it will run like crap when it comes out of Mx (short for maintenance) and have bugs it needs to work that it never had previously. Witnessed it numerous times. Airplanes don't like to sit.

On yeah, news flash: the airlines are a crappy industry.
View attachment B737-700 v BBJ3.pdf

 

The Conklin & Decker document is using a 737-700 and BBJ3 for the comparison. I assume someone made an actual request for this comparison but it should not be considered normal.

There have only been a couple of BBJ3s built and I do not believe any are currently in service yet. The BBJ3 is the VIP iteration of a 737-900; exact same fuselage and wing. Any 737-900 can be ordered with the same cockpit, engine thrust and weights as the BBJ.

The BBJ1 (original BBJ version) is a special build 737-700. The interior is the exact same length. The wing and center fuselage section are from the -800 so that there is a higher payload ability. For those interested the type certificate of a BBJ1 is 737-700 IGW - increased gross weight.

A 737-700 will cost somewhat less to operate because of lower fuel burn from being a 149,000 lb. MTOW versus 170,000 lb.

The BBJ1 has the longest possible range of any of the BBJs at 6,200 n.m. with all 9 auxiliary fuel tanks. Most of the operators have only 6 or 7 tanks so they have more baggage space. In these cases the range drops into the 5,700 n.m. vicinity.

The document is assuming that the BBJ3 is under new warranty. When that expires the engine and maintenance budgets will rise to be similar to the -700. Per hour programs are offered from the major component suppliers.

When anyone seriously evaluates these numbers one is well advised to spend time in the annual price build up section. A VIP captain of the caliber that should be entrusted with this type of aircraft is going to cost more than the amount stated.

Seat mile calculations are a waste of effort and ink. If the boss uses the aircraft then his seat is the only one that counts; others are on board at his discretion. The only meaningful yardstick is trip cost. If one is on board or 20 the cost (excepting catering) is exactly the same.

No flight attendants are listed. Depending upon the operation a BBJ will use at least one and some times two.

All said and done a Boeing is expensive to operate. On the other hand one that can afford a Gulfstream 550/500/V or Global Express is not going to find it that much worse incrementally. In the end a lot of what is spent the higher fuel burn is offset with offset (mostly) by lower maintenance.

Should anyone really need accurate numbers on a BBJ let me know as I do have the connections to get this from an experienced operator.

Jeff

 

Jeff pm sent

I should start and end all of the posts in this section with a disclaimer.
The data provided is for fchat threads only. The numbers are not exact figures and do not truly represent all cost and fees associated with plane ownership and operation. They are used for comparison only and may help answer some of the questions a forum member may have involving air travel.

 

Just a quick question,

How much notification do you need to clear a flight?

For example if I decided at 4pm I wanted to dine in Paris later on the same evening, would the journey be cleared by air traffic in time?

 

is this a trick question? Are you in Paris at the time or another area of France?
if not:
For international trips, especially to France, require permits, flightplans, etc. All taking different amounts of time depending on where you're going. London lead time can be hours, Italy is several days. Some countries don't like the charter industry from other countries taking business from their airlines,so they make it a little more difficult.

 

I diddn't realise that i'd never filled in my location on my profile options, I live in the UK.

Hmm, Isn't the main attraction the freedom of being able to fly when you wish?

- Especially with business class and other bits and bobs avaliable to ease the pain of flying with most airlines.

I'll see what happens in the future for me personally, for me the order of importance is: property / investments / cars / boats / planes.

 

I can't say what the situation in Europe is but in the US many corporate flight departments are on 2 hour notice for flights.

About 2 weeks ago was told by a corporate pilot friend that LHR is impossible unless there is a diplomatic passport on board. Geneva a couple of weeks ago for the corporate aircraft show was on strict time slot reservations for arrival and departures.

The best thing to do is to let the flight crew know in advance of likely time ranges that you would be thinking about and destination. They should be able to advise if there are alternate nearby airports that do not have restrictive time slots and, depending upon the likelihood of the flight, pre-arrange the flight plan. In most cases the flight plan can be moved to match your actual arrival.

Jeff

 

very cool thread....