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Special Editions not so special?

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by Booker, Aug 19, 2019.

  1. Booker

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    #1 Booker, Aug 19, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
    The 458 speciale is probably my favorite Ferrari, but since then it seems that Ferrari has created a surplus of special cars. While I love the cars themselves, it was a bit odd seeing so many TdFs, speciales, etc at the boardwalk spring concorso. This could be explained by the thriving exotic car scene and huge population of Dallas (and the brilliance of Boardwalk!), but does anyone really know how many special editions are being produced?

    Recently it seems TdFs are falling in value, and many of you have mentioned similar concerns for the pista... I used to think such special editions would all be worth million(s) but now I'm not so sure

    So there's a lot to unpack here in terms of production numbers, used market/economy, number of models, and even polarizing custom specs... but I guess to start this conversation I'll ask does anyone have data or articles that shed light on these Special Ferraris and their future?
     
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  2. energy88

    energy88 F1 Veteran
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    I think it gets down to the distinction between Special Editions and Limited Editions. One is open-ended and the other is finite in the numbers produced. Too many units, and it becomes "common." To me, "Special" is customization to personal preference, like having a purple interior. "Limited" seems to imply only a handful produced and at a large premium.

    Old article from a few years ago:

     
  3. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I agree it lost its magic. Cars are amazing but you now expect them to come up with a special version 3 years into the run..There is no more surprise as when they launched the Stradale or the 599 GTO.
     
  4. Booker

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    So a tailor made 488 is special edition for you? While I don't disagree, I'm specifically talking about the final/ultimate track-focused versions of the main line up. In this vein tho, does customizing such cars hurt their value? seems so. maybe limiting customization options will help them hold value?
     
  5. energy88

    energy88 F1 Veteran
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    Track versions, yes! A single-purpose vehicle. Others that are a combination of allowable checked boxes on the order form, probably not, which gets into taste that quite a few persons don't have resulting in especially ugly cars.

    Interestingly, on the new C8 Corvette, Chevy has an option for $590 that allows over-ride of color combinations if approved by the factory. I could see maybe creation of some beautiful color combinations the factory may have overlooked, but probably not. In the worse case you could have a McDonalds yellow over red or a Merry Christmas version red over green when green hits the color pallet.
     
  6. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

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    The Stradale was a spiced up version of an aging model to keep the cash flowing, and the rest continued the trend. Yes, the Stradale was more a surprise, but there can only be one "first time".
     
  7. LVP488

    LVP488 Formula 3

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    For me the Special Versions would have some appeal if they were clearly more radical cars - but with today's technology it has become almost totally artificial, because the very same car can more or less have the comfort of a Grand Tourer and the track pace of a track car, just switching from one program to another (and fitting the proper tyres if one wants to chase the last tenths of seconds).
    Now it's more about pretending (as if removing the glovebox would actually help the car on a track) and moving to exclusivity by increasing prices and limiting (not too much, there is money to be taken) production.
     
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  8. 3POINT8

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  9. stkpick101

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    Totally agree with Energy88 comment. Lately, the only value proposition are the Hyper Cars. Each Brand seems to have theirs, LaFerrari, Senna, 918, Centenario. Then there are the Paganis and Koenigseggs, followed by the Special Editions, the likes of the TDF and the Aperta. However, key issue here is that unless they are parked and never driven, the will lose all their value in an instance. Then, the "Limited Editions" , where nobody really understands how limited they truly are. At the end of the day, unless you are fortunate enough to be on the list of getting the Collectible Hyper cars at their MSRP and you plan on have them sit in the garage while you are sipping on your morning espresso, I personally do not see anyone gaining any financial gain. Such "Limited Editions" are not meant to be driven, but RIDDEN on the track, where very few would ever consider taking their Speciale or a Pista to. Change is coming and Ferrari's open SF90 approach attest to that. I would think that Pista will tank as soon as SF90 hits the streets, and such trend will continue from now on.......
     
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  10. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    They use the Speciale as others have posted to maintain interest and sales once the final production nears, and the new model is announced.

    I agree I think with the 458 Speciale they might have over cooked it a little as there were hundreds of them cranked out and dealers had to choke them down.
    At one point FoH must have had five, six examples??

    Will make it nice after a few years time, but I don't recall that many 430 Scuds, or 16Ms.
     
  11. paulchua

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    Cool Idea - not counting (one-offs)

    308 GTB (Fiberglass) 808 (not special edition, but I sort of count it as one)
    348 Serie Speciale - 100
    348 GT Competizione - 50
    F355 Challenge - 108
    F355 Limited Edition Fiorano - 104
    F512 M - 501 (again not special edition, but I consider it as such)
    Ferrari 550 Barchetta Pininfarina - 448
    Ferrari Superamerica - 559
    599 GTO - 599
    SA Aperta - 80

    599 GTB 60F1 ??
    Challenge Stradale - 1,288
    Scud - ???
    Scud 16M - 499
    612 Sessanta - 60
    Cornes 30th Anniversary Edition - 20
    612 GP Berne Edition - 9

    F12 Tdf - 799
    California - 2-10? (6-speed) (not special edition, but very limited config)
    599 - 30 (6 speed) (not special edition, but very limited config)
    Ferrari F60 America - 10
    458 Speciale - ???
    458 Speciale A - 499
    488 Pista - ???

    (some of the older models I believe have 6-speed variants which make it those more special out of special)

    As always, corrections and pointing out if I may have made an error is not only welcomed, but encouraged.



     
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  12. Korr

    Korr F1 World Champ
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    Porsche now sells more special versions of the 911 than the standard 911. If you really want a special Porsche, you have to get a standard one. Porsche has recognized this, and will sell you a special version that looks like a standard version.
     
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  13. Todd308TR

    Todd308TR F1 Veteran
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    LOL just watched a video on the 911 Speedster, last year's model with chopped window and a manual tranny, they want over $200K for it.
     
  14. Booker

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    #16 Booker, Aug 19, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2019
    Thanks for the info! I'm going through various financial articles, and this transcript from the Q2 conference call is packed with info...
    Ferrari NV (RACE) CEO Louis Camilleri on Q2 2019 Results - Earnings Call Transcript

    In relation to your list, it says there will be about 200 Monzas (per year? maybe 4-500 total) and that the monza deposits were crucial to increasing cash flow. Also, one of the participants correctly assumed (confirmed by Camilleri) that a new Icona will be revealed by 2021 to keep the cash coming
     
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  15. Booker

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    Another note from that transcript is that the engine revenue from maserati dropped off so these new models make up for that
     
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  16. energy88

    energy88 F1 Veteran
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    I wasn't able to read the Seeking Alpha transcript article before being interrupted with a pop up. The mention of 200 Monzas and cash flow reminds me of a similar situation in the 1990s with the Jaguar XJ-220 supercar.

    Here is a quick overview:


    In particular on what happened:

    Sales performance was disappointing. Jaguar had intended to produce up to 350 cars, but production ceased in 1994 with 281 production cars produced, not all of which had been sold; some left-hand drive examples were still available in 1997.[66][67] The recession combined with the drastic changes to the production version left many of those who placed a deposit unable to complete the purchase. The index linking of contracts exacerbated the issue, and added almost £200,000 to the purchase price between early 1990 and mid-1992.[68] The McLaren F1 suffered from similarly poor sales performance, with just 71 cars sold against McLaren's target of 300. McLaren's F1 program eventually turned a small profit due to the sale and servicing of the 28 GTR racing variants produced.[69]
    Not fully elaborated in the above narrative is the severity of the economic downturn that occurred between ordering and production and that the specs of the car changed during the period and many buyers pulled out either to that reason or the general economic environment. Ferrari just might be facing a similar situation involving economic uncertainty as to the timing of a future down turn.
     
  17. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula Junior

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    Sorry, but the above is not really comparable at all, the XJ220 was to be a V12 with ITB to boot! and then it was changed to twin turbo V6, and that was that, everyone felt fooled by Jaguar
    https://jalopnik.com/why-the-legendary-jaguar-xj220-was-a-disappointment-1729710961

    there as no 'economic environment' that caused the XJ220 to be a sales failure, it was the extremely disappointing result of the promised glorious engine being pulled
     
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  18. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula Junior

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    The "worth millions" comes later, 20 years+, even the F40 could be had for 300K 10 years after first production...

    The Speciale / SA has a very special V8 engine, not used in any other model...same with the F12Tdf, however, the 812's engine is a proper evolution but without the fascinating behaviour of the F12Tdf no to mention lack of sound dampening!

    Problem for the Pista is outside of its beautiful shell, the engine is being continued in the F8 and SF90(albeit with GPF, we'll see how that tarnishes the brand!). And for non-GPF Pista's I think they will continue to command a premium versus F8/SF90.

    One thing about the SF90 that I find rather sad is the 'cost cutting' decision to use very weak electric motors (84mph max speed EV only and around 130mph max EV+Engine) when other comers are bringing up to 227mph electric only (Rimac for instance). Hopefully Ferrari will correct this mistake, otherwise that will immediately mark the SF90 as a weak car compared to other brands and its resale value will likely be very weak...it would be best if Camilleri would fix that by specifically replacing the current "Yasa" weakling electrics that are better off in a Prius with something a lot stronger...!!)

    As for values of Speciale's and Tdfs settling down, lower prices are the result of motivated sellers and uncertain future, I believe once the impact of the "EV" future is really felt and particularly if no more V12 engines, you will see more pricing stabilization and eventual rise on pre-2020 Special Editions (with 2020 being the transition year for noGPF/GPF across the board for Ferraris).
     
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  19. energy88

    energy88 F1 Veteran
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    Can't you read?

    Click on the blue word recession in the cite of my post. This was during the time when the great exotic car bubble burst!

    Read about it here, especially the penultimate section:

     
  20. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula Junior

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    I don't usually bother with reading, thanks for reminding me.

    I could return the volley, yes, I know there was a 'bubble burst' in the general sense, sort of in the mid-90s at least in the USA (10% luxury tax on cars, Lamborghini actually paid that on behalf of the Diablo customers to help move cars)

    Yes, there was such an economic downturn, however, when the XJ220 was promised many years earlier it was promised to have a glorious V12 with individual throttle bodies and F1 pedigree, that all disappeared when the car finally was produced and many with money down for years pulled out having been fooled by Jaguar...that is the primary reason why 350 XJ220s were not made, their audience had no interest in a V6 twin-turbo replacement...

    I was alive for that and witnessed it directly, the poor car never had a chance once that happened.

    And my point is a recession did not impact the sales of the XJ220, at least no where near the degree of what the engine replacement caused to occur...

    Imagine if Ferrari did that, promised the F50 with an F1 engine, etc (as they really produced) and then at launch said, nope, we are going to be using a V6 twin turbo with no F1 pedigree, do you think such an F50 would have been anywhere near as successful and highly prized as it is today? (I think it would of been universally panned and of limited interest)...

    back to the motor1 link you provided, here it is, a summary of my comments:
    Another big change from the original design came when the race-bred 6.2-litre V12 was replaced with a biturbo 3.5-liter V6 engine. This was done for multiple reasons, including weight, packaging and emissions.

    Such drastic changes from the original concept car resulted in many people
    cancelling their orders.

    and this did not help either:
    It might not have a big V12 as intended, but the XJ220 is still an impressive machine. Officially Jaguar said that the car would do 0-60 mph (0-96 kph) in 3.6 seconds, but road testers at the time struggled to meet the British manufacturer's bold claims. Road & Track only managed 0-60 mph in 4.8 seconds, some way off what was promised.

    sorry, but for some reason I cannot located the word 'penultimate' in the motor1 link, perhaps you can copy its text here? thanks

     
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  21. energy88

    energy88 F1 Veteran
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  22. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

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    Oh the irony !
     
  23. technom3

    technom3 F1 Rookie
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    Plus an economic downturn
     
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