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Special socket for 308 camshaft drive pulley?

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by ham308, Mar 6, 2004.

  1. ham308

    ham308 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    358
    NE Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Richard Ham
    Anybody know where to get one of these strange 4 pronged sockets for the ring nuts on the camshaft drive pulleys. I know Baum tools do one in the US, but there must be sources in Europe?

    The pulley has to come off to replace the bearing underneath. Having been quoted $2000-$6000 to replace this $5 bearing, been threatened with divorce if it cost $6000 and having read the threads on how to do it, I've decided to have a crack at it myself. Got this far, just need the socket :)

    thanks for any replies
    Richard
     
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  3. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    Nov 29, 2001
    10,268
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    Mitchell Le
    Bought mine from Baum, $75. I would not know where to begin from NE Switzerland. You know, you are a lot closer to Italy. They must make it there for the factory.

    I tried to grind down a regular socket but thought better of it. It is a pretty critical place so I got the tool.
     
  4. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    May 5, 2001
    6,993
    Groton, MA
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    Verell Boaen
    I'll loan you mine, for the shipping costs both ways.
    However, hipping to/from Switz would probably cost almost as much as buying or making one. I estimate fast shipping from the US as 30 to 40 CHF.

    Another is to make one. They're pretty simple tools if you have access to a machine shop with even a small lathe & a mill. Since you're only going to use it a few times, it doesn't have to be super hardened.

    There are a couple of ways to make one:
    - Mill it out of a steel billet the way Baum does
    - Build it up out of steel tubing.

    If you want to pursue making one, I can write up some suggestions.

    BTW, ring nuts seem to be much more standard in Europe than in the USA. I was looking for alternatives to the pricey Baum tool & found 2 or 3 in on-line European tool catalogs.

    I think I'd start by buying a pair of new ones, then taking them to a local machine tool supplier and asking if they can get you a socket. If there's not a machine tool supplier handy, a local machine shop generally has catalogs of tools & might be willing to order one for you.

    BTW, my sympathies on timing drive problems(been there,done that). You've probably already read the following advice in the threads:
    Don't try to scrimp & just replace the outer bearing. When the outer bearing fails, it lets the cam drive gear's shaft cock off-center, thus generally damaging the inner bearing which will detectably fail a few thousand Km down the road, taking the new outer bearing with it.

    The reason the repair is so expensive is that it's a lot of work! I probably spent 40 hours re-doing my timing drive. If you haven't found my & Robert Garven's very long timing drive repair threads in the Old FerrariChat archives, let me know & I'll post links to them.
     
  5. Joe G.

    Joe G. Formula 3
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    Dec 9, 2003
    1,077
    Los Angeles
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    Joe Gazzani
    YelCab,

    Do you have the Baum part number for the camshaft drive pulley special socket? (the one you bought)
    i.e FR _ _ _ ?

    And is the nut for the cam drive gear (lower) and the camshaft gear (upper) the same ?

    Much appreciated.
    Joe G.
     
  6. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    May 5, 2001
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    The upper cam belt gears are held on by metric bolts.

    The only places ring nuts are used are cam drive gears, transfer gears, inside the steering wheel, & in the transmission.

    They're all different sizes of course(sigh).
     
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  8. Joe G.

    Joe G. Formula 3
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    Hello Verrell,

    That's true about the metric hex bolts.
    I had forgotten over the years.

    Thanks for the info.
     
  9. 348paul

    348paul Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2002
    1,098
    Kent - UK
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    Paul Hill
    Verell,

    Do you know what diameter the ring nut is?

    Paul
     
  10. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    Nov 29, 2001
    10,268
    San Carlos, CA
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    Mitchell Le

    Joe,

    http://tools.baumtools.com/index.jsp?index=2&newIndex=1&menu=ferr

    FR104 is the tool.
     
  11. Joe G.

    Joe G. Formula 3
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    Dec 9, 2003
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    Thanks YelCab !
     
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  13. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    May 5, 2001
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    It's a 28mm ring nut based on measuring my FER104 which meas 28.76mm across the circular clearance cutout.

    I'm pretty sure that all the ring nut sizes were once posted in the old TechQ&A, along with the corresponding tool #s.
     
  14. 1975gt4don

    1975gt4don Formula Junior

    Nov 5, 2003
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    Peoples Rep of CA
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    Smog Exempt
  15. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    Nov 29, 2001
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    It is the same one. I used it on both locations.
     
  16. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    May 5, 2001
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    CORRECTION:
    Drat, short in headset!, in a catalog the ring nut will be spec'd by the size of the threaded hole(DUHHH). Not sure how the tool would be spec'd, either by the OD which I gave above, or by the thread size.

    Unfortunately, I don't remember the gear shaft's thread size right off & can't get to my car to measure it right now.
     
  17. Gianluca

    Gianluca Formula Junior

    May 6, 2003
    349
    Centreville, Virgini
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    Gianluca Chegai
    The thread size is (1981 GTSi) M17 x 1mm pitch
     
  18. ham308

    ham308 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    358
    NE Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Richard Ham
    Thanks to you all for the replies, and to Verell for the offer of shipping the tool from the US. I've been off for a couple of days so could'nt answer.

    Yes, Verell I did read your excellent and awe inspiring thread on the old site (several times). That is why I am SORELY tempted just to change the outer bearing :)

    On this theme, a well respected and experienced local garage said that it is normally only the outer one's that go and if at all possible, they only change these. If they can't get them off from the outside then it's an engine-out job for them, and hence the vast sums of money. I guess whenever (if ever) I get the ring nuts off I'll see just how bad the bearings are and take it from there.

    In the meantime I'll continue the hunt for a proper tool. Ferrari UK quoted £130, (can't resist a dig here; no dissrespect Mark, but that must be the gold plated one? :) ).

    Anyway, there's no particular hurry. Freezing temperatures, spiders the size of mice and pressure of work all combine to keep me out of the garage.

    Another question - any idea why Ferrari fit this special ring nut here? It looks like there's plenty of room to fit a normal nut, and that would make life very easy...........

    Richard
     
  19. Gianluca

    Gianluca Formula Junior

    May 6, 2003
    349
    Centreville, Virgini
    Full Name:
    Gianluca Chegai
    Ham 308,
    There are not regular M17 x ... nuts available. They go from M16 to M18.

    If there was a normal nut, I would have used it without thinking twice.

    It seems, however, that ring nuts are commonly used on shafts.
     
  20. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
    19,351
    Texas
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    Even if you can find a hex nut with the proper thread, the size of the hex will be HUGE compared to a ring nut OD, the thickness of the hex nut will be much larger than the thickness of a ring nut, and the face of the hex nut probably won't be as perpendicular to the thread pitch diameter as a well-made ring nut.

    Never needed to source a ring nut myself, but just thought I'd post this company:

    http://www.whittet-higgins.com

    as a possible if someone wants/needs to look outside of the usual F parts suppliers.

    They've got the ring nut sockets too (but only gauranteed to work with their ring nuts, and it's probably impossible to buy 1 retail ;)):

    http://www.whittet-higgins.com/part.php?series_id=76
     
  21. Gianluca

    Gianluca Formula Junior

    May 6, 2003
    349
    Centreville, Virgini
    Full Name:
    Gianluca Chegai
    91tr,
    yes they have the socket AND the proper tap. I have a nice quality lathe and could have machined my own nuts (with a hex somewhere!) and tapped them.
    My lathe doesn't do metric.
    The cost for these two items is, however, prohibitive.
    They are willing to sell their regular ring nuts for $ 1.83 @ for a lot of 100.
    The ones with the locking bone ring are $ 4.some and the nylon locking ring $ 7.some.
    The problem with the regular ones (the price is attractive) is the non self-locking feature
    Do you feel that a Loctite type of stuff could be sufficent to hold these on?

    Need to buy a new lathe!
     

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