Speciale Collectability

Do it.

In a German Classic Car magazine the 4C has just been elected as a future collector car.

 

As a former owner of both a CS and a 12C, both of which I loved, I just cannot agree with your analysis of the Speciale.

You will NEVER hear me criticise the CS, it is beautiful and simply a masterpiece of a car. Undeniably better IMO than its successor in many senses; appearance, sound, simplicity. For me, it was better overall but that is more subjective and reflects personal preference. Not as fast as the Scud, or modern, with a weaker gear change. But really, performance was very rapid and easily within that realm where a well driven CS would run rings around most people driving a Scud.

When my CS was leaving me, to be replaced some months later by a Speciale, I wondered if I was doing the right thing. I needn't have worried. The Speciale is exactly what people seem to mean by 'out of the park'. To criticise it for being not raw or visceral enough is just not correct in my view. I know on forums we have to allow for the fact that people see things differently, but I just think that conclusion is very misleading. I would bet no more than 1 person out of 100 would get out of the Speciale and say "not exciting enough for me."

Certainly as far as I can see, my CS was very slightly more raw than the Speciale but if the CS was 10, the Speciale might be 9.8. Compared with the Mac, the Speciale is a scalpel and so focused at the front end. On track with the n/a powertrain and the wonderful handling and response, the macs are not a match (a bit more subjective, but I'm confident most people would conclude the same) with the exception of the 675, which I haven't driven but a good friend assures me is wonderful on track.

So you like "excitement, noise and visceral raw passion" and reckon the Scud delivers "head and shoulders more of"? I just don't see that at all. The Speciale has it all in my view, which is why the market is where it is. Each of the three cars; CS, Scud, Speciale is great in its own right and will have its rightful place in automotive history. But to criticise the Speciale on the basis of the things you have mentioned seems unrealistic and not at all representative - only a very very few people (outside of Scud owners) would see it the same way IMV.

I was in my Speciale again last night; first 'real' drive after the winter, where I have been using my FF. The FF is wonderful, but the Speciale is magical. It is so beautifully well judged that it will take something extraordinary to beat it in my affections - not even the CS comes that close in terms of driving thrills, with its wonderful soundtrack and all. The front end is electric, at any speed, the rear is so malleable and a perfect foil for that lovely front, the feel is there so the inputs the car needs you to make are telegraphed all in good time, this gives such a sense of 'connection'; the car and you communicating seemingly unhindered. How you can say it does not have oomph is absolutely beyond me - less mid-range torque shove than a 488 or 650, yes, but it has blistering, wrung-out, 9k redline, sensational speed that tingles not only your spine but everything else too! It is beautiful, loud, a little bit rude, quick, rewarding, communicative. In fact sensational. Its delta to Scud, or even CS for that matter is smaller than where I would personally put it.

As for the chap who vlogged selling his Speciale. Seemed to go some thing like "got call from dealer offering more than I paid, the promise of something 'nice' in the future, I wanted to play the game, oh and well...it is brilliant but I have a GT3 to ease the pain and, yes, I suppose it might be easier to use the more limited performance of the GT3 on the road so I'll use that as some post-sale-rationalisation..." Not criticising him at all, we've all been there and fair play to him - who's to say it won't work out for him?

 

A CS 10, a Speciale 9.8 in terms of rawness? That's quite a stretch...and let's put that into perspective, that would mean a Scuderia is a 9.9 because comparatively speaking the Speciale is unrefutedly the most "civil" of the three and it is fact that with each passing generation the car has become more and more compliant, it's a natural progression. I have never heard a Speciale owner say, ya my car is just as raw as a cs, never.

Sound? Equal? Come on, that's been widely discussed and there's even a "sound crisis" thread dedicated to how Speciale owners looked and found solutions to the problem. With each generation the sound has been pacified more and more (stock for stock). Plenty of documentation of this. Pull a 355 up against a Speciale...that's already night and day.

On track, the NA factor is negligible to be honest because the cars are typically running at higher revs. You would be the first one if not the ONLY person who would claim a Mac is a blunt track instrument lacking precise steering compared to a Speciale which is a scalpel...would you drive a Mac differently from a NA ferrari? probably, but that does not mean it has inferior handling or front end precision. In all seriousness, the Mac is the real surgical track instrument, it will relentlessly and consistently bang in lap times and highly accessible to even the avg Joe. Drama & excitement though, probably not so much.

The argument about a capable driver behind a cs running rings around any newer car is beyond moot. Same would apply for any comparable car mentioned in this thread, but in equal hands, the cs, Scuderia, Speciale would all be left in the dust on a circuit, in a straight even in reverse by any mac. No subjectivity there, it's plain fact. If you were fast in a cs, you would be faster in a scud, even faster in a Speciale and fastest in a mac (even an MP4). Performance is performance, no subjectivity there.

I owned a cs in parallel with a scuderia & later got an mp4, kept the scud sold the cs because I still needed "contemporary" performance and at the time the cs was appreciating from what I paid. In hindsight in terms of collectibility probably should have hung onto it, if not just for a bit longer until it broke the 200k mark. I still made money, still got to keep a visceral, raw car in the garage so can't really complain.

 

Didn't suggest Speciale sounds better than CS, it clearly doesn't. What I said/meant was that the Speciale and it's driving experience do more for me personally than CS did, even after taking account of the CS' better sound, gorgeous looks etc. I would never have imagined saying that when my CS disappeared up the drive for the last time.

The comparison of 'rawness'? Well here is one owner of both cars and I think this particular conversation is overplayed. Yes, the CS is a rawer experience, but then it is an older car. A 212 is a rawer experience than a Daytona. Doesn't stop the Daytona being a complete handful of a thing (and a car I know I would prefer). The degrees of 'rawness' between the CS and Speciale is not too much IMV. Would a 458 driver get into a Speciale and say "ooh, a bit too civilised?" Even compared to a 360 Modena (which I have also owned) the Speciale is uncompromising and hard-edged.

Look, vis-a-vis the 12C, it's 'horses for courses'. Yes, the 12C is impressive. Lacking character? Not in my book. But I just don't believe a turbo powertrain is as incisive on track, though without doubt you can get massive power. Race drivers tend to prefer the feel of an n/a but if they can go faster with a turbo then a turbo it is. 12C/650 really compete with 458/488 not Speciale or LT. Those cars are set up to be more hardcore, more insistent, more responsive, with less natural under steer. I have read many press reports that agree with exactly what my own findings are, so I'm likely to believe it when my backside tells me exactly the same thing as I read. Why is it surprising that a Scud or Speciale, or 675 LT for that matter feels better on track?

Not to say it's a better 'car' than a 12C/650 (although I personally think it is) because some of those on McLife don't agree with that, I know, and that's fair enough.

For most people? Track days are about having fun, going quicker in your car than before, not believing you're as good as Lewis or Seb. Not being able to comment on the LT I reckon a Speciale is the mid-engined car to choose for that. I would not pick up the keys to a 12C, 650 or 458 for that matter over the Speciale on track, not in a month of Sundays.

Try looking at some facts about the relative track speed of 12C v Speciale from journalists who have tested them. They don't bear out your comments that Speciale wouldn't see which way a 12C went. I have driven my own 12C against multiple friends with Speciales etc.(and done the revers too - driven my Speciale against their 12Cs) over thousands of road miles, again doesn't bear your comments out. I can tell you from my own repeated experience that on road, 12C and Speciale are similar, Speciale slightly quicker (over ground which includes straights and turns). F12 slower than both, but quicker than Speciale on straight, whereas 12C can stay with an F12 on a straight. On very twisty roads Speciale is better. LT? Must be the fastest of the lot. But the best? Now that's a proper question.

Edit: Spec v 650 (which is faster than 12C)

Varano - 1;12.50 v 1;12.29
Sachsenring - 1;32.76 v 1;33.15
Castle Combe - 1;11.90 v 1;12.90

And in straight line performance, I always think that 80-120 km/h is a good arbiter of real-world speed and 'punch'. 1.6s v 1.5s.

Stats taken from Zeperfs which aggregates respected magazines' findings.

 

Driving a Speciale honestly killed my enthusiasm for the car granted I only drove it on the street and not a track. Its not that it wasn't a great car, but I think I was just expecting a bit more drama. As a former 458 owner, I naturally aspired to buy a Speciale one day, but after actually driving one, I changed course and ended up with a scud instead. All of these new cars from Ferrari, mclaren, etc are just designed to be so docile and refined when putting around town. That's simply what people want these days. I have no doubt the Speciale is spectacular when you're pushing it hard. But does that effect collectibility? Doubt it. If I had already owned a Speciale, would I want to sell it and buy a scud or CS? Probably not. I do think all three of these special edition v8 cars have their individual strengths. if I had to summarize, it would be

CS- best looking
Scud- most thrilling
Speciale- best performing

If I could, I would all own three. In fact I think many collectors would too if these are in fact the last NA v8 cars from Ferrari.

 

I tend to assume the position of freshmeat.

I'm a Scuderia owner and ordered two months ago a new McLaren 650S, I decided against a used Speciale and against a new 488GTB.

I wrote in another post "...the 488 has become more GT and less mid engine sports car" and "I'm worried about Ferrari". What do I mean with these statements? IMO with its V8 mid-engine cars Ferrari tries to address a too broad customer base. I personally miss more and more an extreme, reduced and race oriented character in this product line. I can feel this character when I drive my Scud and I have found this character in McLaren's Super Series product line - reduced, tight and extreme. I drove several times the Speciale and came allways to the same conclusion, hmmmm, what a nice car, pretty nice. Then I gave it back and was glad to be able to go into my crazy Scuderia.

Please dot get me wrong, this statement is tailored to my personal expectations. Then I discussed my impressions with colleagues from the Ferrari Club. And yes, I have to admit, Ferrari knows its customer base better than me. Most of the 458 and 488 owners are totally happy with the actual way of Ferrari, they aren't looking for a Scuderia V2.0 and they hate the thinness and minimalism of a 650S, they said "what a crap, too hard to enter...".

So I think yes, Ferrari is on the right track, the cars meet the current customer expectations. I'm wrong and not Ferrari. But I hope, no I pray for Ferrari and for me that the coming 488 "Scuderia" will be a real extreme hellhound with corners and edges.

Is the Speciale a collector car? Of course yes, each Ferrari is it worth to collect. But especially the Speciale, the "most perfect one" in the triple alliance...

 

Lukeylikey,

Fastestlaptimes / Zeperfs are times set by different drivers, in very likely varying conditions.

Lets say we try to isolate that variability, and say we keep the track & the driver more constant. For that, lets use the Top Gear numbers & their test track as a common benchmark:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Top_Gear_test_track_Power_Lap_Times

See where the MP4-12C sits?
1:16.2

Compared to:

Base 458
1:19.1

430 Scuderia
1:19.7

Challenge Stradale
1:22.3

I know there isn't a Speciale lap time on there, but lets use the most optimistic Ferrari marketing number that we can find, and that is from what I understand, "The Speciale is 2s a lap faster than a base 458 at Fiorano." In reality, only 1.5s faster at best, but like I said lets throw some generous optimism (half a second's worth) at it for the purpose of this discussion.

That would peg the Speciale at 1:17.1.

Hell lets say the Speciale with all of its fancy dynamic aero bits and black magic ssc voodoo witchcraft is somehow magically 3s faster than a base 458 on top gear in the same equal hands...that would still be a 1:16.1...only a marginal 1 tenth faster than an old, outdated MP4 running non-cup tires...

To be frank, in a world of diminishing returns of the na 458 V8 motor (which pretty much is the peak of what can be extracted from an NA V8) and clearly maxed out computer nannies and aero, it's gonna be impossible to recover a full 3s a lap on a 1.75miles long circuit for a road going car, but hey, if you think Ferrari has somehow been able to bend space and time, defy the laws of physics but decided to not let the world enjoy the feat by going to turbo in the 488, well, that's some theory...

Fiorano is a longer circuit too btw, almost 2miles long...so that would have meant even more room for a bigger gap in lap times between base 458 vs Speciale no? But again, for the sake of optimism and the purpose of this discussion lets just toss that out the window.

And did you know, both 430 Scuderia and base 458 clocked the same laptime at Fiorano? 1:25 even

Speciale
1:23.5

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiorano_Circuit

But all this is just performance, it's not the be all and end all for collectibility...if it was the be all and end all, the MP4 would be a collectible and not have taken such a poo-pooey in depreciation.

 

I have owned all three. The CS for two years, the SCUD for a year, and the Speciale for a year now. There is NO comparison as far as excitement goes - the Speciale absolutely destroys the others in terms of sheer raw acceleration, trackability and visceral excitement. I will say the CS provides the best sound of the three. Looks wise I put the Speciale at 10, the CS at 9.9 (don't like the bulbous front) and the Scud at 6.0 (never was a fan of the 430 and the Scud didn't change much to the base 430s looks.) As to the Mac you WOULD DEFINATLY NOT be faster than any of the three cars because you would run off the track at the first turn - its hard to drive a track when you have a paper bag over your head because your car is so ****ing ugly!

Different strokes for different folks as they say. They are ALL wonderful cars, but being an owner of all 3 I will take the Speciale all week and twice on Sunday above the others. Thats probably why they cost almost twice as much as the other two.

 

Closely related to Donald Trump?

 

+ 1
I had two Stradales until last year. I had to give one to the dealer to get an allocation for a Speciale (you know how it is working with Ferrari dealers). I was reluctant to give up a Stradale because I never thought I'd enjoy another Ferrari more than Stradales. But I decided to take a leap of faith and grab a Speciale while I had the opportunity. Best decision I ever made! The Speciale is in a different world than Stradales. I think Stradales sound a little better, BUT after I made a small tweak to the Speciale's exhaust (installed 200 cell cats) the results were perfect. I'll keep both for the duration, but if I could have only one it would absolutely be the Speciale without hesitation.

 

Real Americans support Trump. Socialists go for crooked Hillary. Lol

 

Collectability will come down to simple supply and demand. How many serious buyers looking for a car vs. how many are on the market for sale. The worldwide production numbers isn't as important as the allocation given to a particular market. U.S buyers will be vying for U.S cars. There are only 300 CSs in the U.S. It is no surprise it is priced where it should be. As more individuals reach financial success and the pool of wealth grows , the pool of potential buyers grow (demand), so it's not a simple as 2000 Scuds produced vs 3000 Speciales produced. So I guess the question is , how strong will the demand be in the next 3-10 years? Will the Speciale hold its ground in terms of value? Will it increase in value further?

Looks play a huge factor in desireability. I actually like the looks of the Speciale (still hate the headlights) and I think it looks the best of the three with CS being last (don't like the bubbly headlights). Aside from the La Ferrari, which is waaay out if my price range, I haven't been excited about anything Ferrari has come up with. To me, as far as looks go, Ferraris are looking worse and worse and some still more expensive than the Speciale. I know looks are subjective, but if enough people share the same sentiment and Ferrari continues on the same path, the Speciale will be the car to get and keep. Although some would argue Ferrari is known for their V12 builds, I would argue their mid-engined V8 is their bread and butter. I would jokingly tell friends, "if the engine is not in the back, it's not a Ferrari" .

But there is something odd about Speciales that we might not have seen or at least on the same scale in previous generations. Seems like a significant portion of Speciales are totally custom in terms of color, stripes, interior look etc... And I personally wouldn't buy a spec I didnt like Speciale or not. I am not sure it was a good idea to have a customer basically design a car. Most of them look horrid to me, but a few have surprisingly turned out better than expected. There's a huge price difference in the used Scud market based on color alone. Imagine the price difference between a fugly specd Speciale and a decent one . Who knows... The fugly Speciales might pull the Speciale market down. What would the F40 market look like if a significant percentage of cars made came in odd specs like purple, green or tiffany blue with pink stripes etc... But of course, to each their own . Curious to see how it all plays out and I'll be the first to admit, I am hoping for a sub 300k Speciale.

 

The Castle Combe test was done same day, same drivers. It was the most favourable result for the Speciale. Whereas your theory is "assume this, extrapolate that".

I'm not suggesting there aren't some days and some circuits and some drivers where a 650 would be quicker, but your original point of any Mac would destroy the Ferraris doesn't seem valid to me.

There are obviously people around who prefer the earlier cars, as we can see from this thread, just not me. Not by a long way. The strength of the Speciale seems so convincing to me that I'm having a hard time understanding why anyone would have a different view, though they obviously do.

Just goes to show that people have very different priorities when choosing cars, and unless you know the person and how they drive, it's hard to gauge whether their findings would apply to you.

 

It's not rocket science or voodoo magic. It's a simple gain of 3.1s a lap on a 1.75mile circuit.

Ok, so you're saying you believe a Speciale can be 3.1s faster than a base 458 on a 1.75mile long top gear test track, in order to be able to beat a McLaren MP4-12C?

Coz there is no "theory or extrapolation" in that gap...sorry if I wasn't being clear.

 

Not as an investment and its also not an LE model or the most recent NA V8 as was the Aperta.

 

New Speciale owner here and it's also my first Ferrari. Since taking delivery and driving it, I concluded that I'll never sell it. It's an event even driving it slow.

 

I took it as a compliment

 

Absolutely! I didn't mean to stick my nose into things, but redcaruser asked for it. Go Trump!

Don't blast dmark1. He's innocent. Blast me. LOL

 

Well of course there is. The Speciale never actually went around the TG track. You discounted the Varano and Sachsenring times because they were done on different days. Well the 12C and 458 around TG were done in different years! Then you used the delta between the 458 and Speciale at Fiorano to predict a delta at TG! Say what? There are so many variables that such a prediction just does not work. Otherwise why was the 650 slightly faster at Varano but slower at Sachsenring and especially at Castle Combe, where the test was done with the same driver on the same day, which as you said first, is the best comparator (and with that, I agree).

With all of this I'm not trying to suggest track speed is the be-all-and-end-all for people like us, just that your claim that the Ferraris could not live with any Mac is not really credible.

Playing your game for a minute, there is another point too. If you look at Fiorano fastest lap times you will see that the 360 GT2 is 16 seconds faster than the Modena. GT2 has similar power but a little less weight, some more aero.....and slick tyres. Point is, tyres can make a world of difference to lap time. In other words, if you are looking for your theoretical 3 seconds at TG, the MPSC2 will give a large percentage of that.

Also, at Fiorano the CS was quicker than the Modena by.....yep, you guessed it, 3.5 seconds. 20 more hp, 100kg or so less weight, better tyres and updated suspension are the main differences. So why is the Speciale only claimed to be 1.5s faster than the 458 when it benefits from exactly the same things? In truth it is an unanswerable question (only Ferrari know). But I was always amused at the exact nature of the lap times. 1:23.50 for Speciale against 1:23.00 for the flagship F12. Did I say F12 was the flagship yet? Seems a bit too convenient to me, and when I did Pilota 1 and 2, with about 30 people on each separate course, no one could get close to the Speciale time with an F12. Fiorano 'official' lap times are perhaps a loose indicator but they are really marketing I reckon.

None of that is scientific so to anyone reading, you have to make up your own mind but it seems at least possible that the Speciale's advantage over the 458 could be closer to the CS's advantage over the Modena (though I must admit, I don't think I could do that - my own personal advantage in lap time with the Speciale in sport mode over the 458 in race mode was negligible, if I had both in CT off would I see a delta like 3s? Not sure.)

The other big point is that the 12C was launched, I believe, with the TG programme and lap time very much in mind. I suspect it was part of their PR strategy all along. The car was developed at that track, and set up specifically for it. If you look at other tests, it didn't hold nearly the same advantage over other vehicles, including the 458, as it did ad Dunsfold.

 

Re-read my original post, I clearly outlined "road going car" i.e. stock cars, not race cars on race slicks.

The gap is 3.1s, I threw in "extrapolation" on the part where Ferrari marketing said the Speciale is 1.5s a lap faster on a 2mile Fiorano circuit to illustrate a point, and with generous, generous optimism. Even w launch and the extra prep you mentioned...3.1s is a lot of time to recover.

The gap of 3.1s between base 458 to MP4 still stands, so yes or no, you believe the road going stock Speciale can close that gap?

Vairano is your jam right?
The old, outdated MP4 on non-cup tires did it in 1:12.9
650S, 1:12.3 (pzero)
458 Speciale, 1:12.5 (cup)

The MP4 was beaten by only 4 tenths by a Speciale on cups...the LT will demolish the Speciale looking at the times here. So, you still think that could translate to recovering a 3.1s gap at tg against the MP4? Ok then, too much "extrapolation" going on up in here...

Hey, this conversation came to be because you said the Mac has inferior handling and is slower than the Speciale no? That it is vastly imprecise unlike the scalpel Speciale? So far, that's another stretch it seems...so far, even based on your preference of data points, it's looking more like a hard neck-and-neck fight. And all the MP4 owners I know, incl myself, that own a Ferrari too, have all said the same thing: the performance in the mac is much more easily accessible i.e. avg joe like me, can put it all down and translate it into bang on lap times.

This is starting to remind me of those ppl who kept saying the Scuderia seats hurt their back so badly and are so uncomfortable, yet the core, padding, mounts, carbon etc are pretty much identical to the race seats in their 458s they were comparing to, albeit w just different upholstery...some kinda psychological mind trick going on up in here or deviated stitching has negative physical side effects to occupants lol

I guess we're going to think what we want to think...

 

The best lap times are achieved using the best drivers. In another thread you concurred that in the hands of the right driver the F12 beats the Speciale so its not a good basis for your argument here. Although your overall point is well taken.

 

Yes, it's true, the instructors seemed to believe that the F12 'could' achieve a very fast lap, but all agreed it was far harder, even for them, to do that. When they had their own private little battle before the arrival of the clients (I caught them comparing lap times, so I asked) they used 458s. Asking their favourites, 2 out of about 8 preferred the F12, the rest the Speciale. The two said they liked the F12 because you had to be good to drive it well.

Might mean nothing and there's no doubting the F12 is fast. The fact is, though, the F12 does not feel like a track car in the same way as the Speciale. You seem to have to hold back a bit because of the weight and the massive power, whereas you feel you can attack the Speciale more. If Ferrari say they can get the F12 around the track quicker, then I can't disprove it, who's to say it isn't correct, although as I said before the rounded lap times and the fact that the F12 is conveniently half a second faster does seem a little contrived potentially.

Ultimately, laptimes are not that relevant I think, otherwise an F40 is not interesting because it is somewhat slow by today's standards. The reality couldn't be further from that truth is my guess (never driven an F40).

 

Look, this is simple. The only head to head, same day, same track, same driver lap time I know of is Autocar at Castle Combe, where the Speciale was quicker. By your own words that is the purest comparison. Does it mean that Speciale wins always? No. Does it mean that the Ferrari can't live with any Mac on track? Also no.

Look over my posts over a few years now on McLife. I do never say that the Mac's handling is poor, so please don't put those words in my mouth. Does it under steer more than the Speciale? Yes. So does the 458. That's the point of the Speciale and also the design brief of the Mac. The LT I believe to be different. Horses for courses. I personally prefer the more aggressive set up of the track-special cars, that doesn't mean I am by default making a comment on the quality of the Mac's handling, it is designed to fulfil a different brief as I said. And for some people, it is just right, meaning that CS, Scud, Spec or LT are not.

I am no Mac knocker I promise you that. Oh, and by the way, the Speciale's performance is equally accessible as the Mac. The 12C I had was mighty impressive at the business of going quickly, but the Speciale's neat trick is to make you feel like you're in direct control as you're going quickly. Maybe it's fake, and a masterclass of electronics, but frankly, I don't care because it feels wonderful. It does feel more natural to me than the 12C did, although I only have good words for the 12C I owned. It was a brilliant thing.

 

This makes the Speciale special and collectable.

https://youtu.be/F6aBxJ-56jE

 

Fantastic!
Curious, did you have to setup the car in terms of camber or toe adjustment?
What tire pressures were you running?
I ask because when I took my 16M on track out of the box, it had significant understeer.