Speciale Market

I love it when guys offer opinions on cars that they have never driven. A lot of car guys like to regurgitate information they read somewhere on the Internet, from people who has no experience with the car.

CGT vs. Speciale? I think someone is smoking crack when they are comparing the two. Let's see, one is a full carbon chassis car, carbon body panels and a F1 derived V10 engine. Manual and the last of the analogue supercars. The other one is a mass produced lightweight derivative of a mainstream model that is constructed out of aluminum. Hmm.....

 

Given the choice (money not being a factor) I'm taking the CGT all day every day....

 

Experience> DUDE I OWNED one for 2 years. Maintenance prone piece of ****.

Mass produced? The CGT had over 600 sold in the US alone. They made 2200 Specials of which typical 40% went to the US market ... so 880. So that argument doesn't hold water either,,, there are practically the same amount in the US (minus the ones that have crashed of which the CGT seems to be particularly adept at).

When comparing analogue cars I much prefer my FGT....which is 10 times better looking than the CGT to me.

 

Great! Thats why I said "in my opinion" (which, by the way is from real world experience). Thats why they make different brands of cars!

BTW...which would you rather have? The CGT or the Speciale with 300K in the boot?

 

Posted by Gene-O on May 21, 2015. He is a former owner of CGT, and current owner of Speciale.

I'm a new 2014 458 Speciale owner. Bought from Miller Motorcars in Greenwich, CT.
Previously owned a 2005 Carrera GT. See attached photos of both.
Bottom line was that the CGT value zoomed up so much in past year that A) It had become a collector's car, not a driver's car (by my definition, your mileage may vary). B) I got an offer I couldn't refuse. So my collector garage brokered both deals for me. I actually had money left over in the end, even after dealer mark-up. I had predicted that the CGT would gain in value as one of the last analogue supercars out there. But as a former pro Formula Atlantic team owner and driver, I don't want to just look at my car, I want to thrash it.
So I thought you might find my reflections about how the cars differ of interest.
Like any car, both these gems have pros and cons:
CGT pros:
- Insanely well engineered from the shocks to the engine to the ergonomics (with two exceptions) all the way to the roof storage in the trunk.
- Incredible feeling of stability and downforce when at speed (but see handling at the limit under cons). The faster you go, the more absolutely, 100% planted you feel.
- Excellent steering feedback and feel. Perfect at any speed.
- Acceleration that won't let up even into 3 digits. Perfect instant throttle control.
- Most beautiful engine compartment ever (again, my feelings).
- Still extremely desirable to drive. Doesn't get old.
- Insane attention getter, if you're into people hanging out of their cars to take a snap.
- Up until recently... the best rear visibility rearward, especially the side mirrors, in a car with this potential.
- The car LOVES to get thrashed. Slam on the brakes, abuse the throttle.... do whatever you want, this car just keeps saying "Is that all you got...?"
- Gorgeous looking from most angles (yes I did say "most" not all).
- Beautiful interior. Extremely good human engineering. Everything is where you'd logically expect it to be. Some people who haven't driven it ask if the gearshift is too high up, but believe me, once you've driven it, you'll see why it's in the same position as on a Trans Am race car.
CGT cons:
- The seats don't conform to the curve of your back as well as expected, causing one to do a "mini-hunch" with your spine that is not the most comfortable on trips.
- The brakes simply don't have "supercar bite" until or unless they are HOT. This was by far my biggest issue with the car (not the clutch, see below). When I first took delivery, and for hundreds of miles after, there were times when I was 100% sure I was about to go right under the back of a truck in front of me because the braking just wasn't there if not hot and I mean "2 hot laps" hot. I finally resorted to going out on my local highway very early on a Sunday morning and doing a "racing" break-in... accelerate to 80 or 90 and slam on the brakes back to 30... repeat 10 times... cool down... do a u-turn... repeat the whole process a 2nd time... And even then, I still to the day I sold it had to be extremely careful with cold brakes. I hear that Porsche and other makers now have the Carbon/Ceramic tech well in hand, but the CGT suffered from a bit of "1st generation"-itis in my humble opinion.
- Yes, when new, the clutch acted almost exactly like my formula car's did (as in your choices from a stop are on/off/stall and very little in between) for the first 1500 miles, then it finally bedded in and had been no problem for me since.
- The view of the car from the front can be considered a bit "challenging" to me, as in the front looks spliced onto the rest of the car, which is drop dead sweet.
- Handling at the limit. Others have had different experiences with TC and snap oversteer. I have had two experiences. A) When the back steps out, the TC feels perfect to me... it allows the stepping out, but only about 25 degrees. And it recovers beautifully with just a bit of countersteer. I have never spun the car around. However, there is an edginess to the car when you enter into a corner that can make you not want to go above N/10ths. See further discussion below comparing the driving feel of the two cars.
Onto 458 Pros:
- One of the most beautifully designed cars from all angles. I feel the Speciale even out did the Italia and that it's beauty surpasses the upcoming 488. There's never a moment of "well that's not my favorite angle... but just shut up and drive the car."
- I now 100% understand and see (with great giggles and joy) why EVO magazine's test drivers all rated this car #1 across the board. It is insane on the road without feeling like it's going to bite you. It's just plain fun. The electronic controls on everything are a marvel to behold... yet the car feels expert at everything... the shocks... the steering... the engine... and especially...
- The brakes... god bless these brakes... holy cow I haven't even had the need to really get to 100% stopping power yet... they make me laugh... as good as a race car's no matter if cold/hot/medium rare... it doesn't matter. They haul the mail down at any speed. Bravo !! This is how Carbon/Ceramic is supposed to feel !!
- The interior, while quirky (see cons), is still exquisitely open and bright. I was not alone in owning a CGT that our wives would rather not sit in because it was a bit "close" and as my wife said, "Like a Batmobile" (which for a racer is no big deal) but the 458 interior makes me and my wife happy... period.
- The seats are Italian perfect to sit in. Great for trips.
- Good visibility in any direction (only slight occlusion 3/4 rear if you're at a stop sign on an angled road intersection... but you learn where best to stop in such cases).
- The acceleration is mad good. Double digits... triple digits... digs deep from a stop and gets you to super-legal territory in a damn hurry and once again I can hear it say "that all you got...?"
- The handling in turns is superb. It's going to take track time and/or farmland roads way up north where the visibility and runoff is better to explore this car's limits safely.
- Totally happy car at slow speeds or lower in the RPM range.
- Perfect take-off control under any conditions. No funky clutch.
Finally, 458 Cons:
- The car does not feel as "anvil solid" as the CGT. More below. Not necessarily a "con" if it's to your tastes.
- Quirky Controls. Capital Letters. As in "We are Ferrari... we will put controls where we like and you will learn to use them that way... and pay for the privilege !!" I especially laughed at the rather "random" placement of the wee little buttons for gas lock release and trunk release just kind of "splatted" somewhere in the middle of the driver's door (oh come on Mr. Interior Designer just close your eyes and smack those buttons any 'ol where... what's the big deal... anyway there's no more room on the steering wheel !!)
- Not necessarily a car you just hop in and drive for the first time if you're a new Ferrari owner. I actually sat in the garage with my car on and my manual open stepping through every option. I felt like I was back in school. Not a problem after the learning curve is done.
- Getting used to paddle shifting. Sorry but after all the years of learning to finesse a clutch car, it takes concentration to not have my extra hand and foot control "at the ready" to finesse the feel and balance of the car. See below. There are also ramifications at low speeds.
- Did they HAVE to put turn signal controls on the damn wheel... and do they HAVE to re-invent the logic for turning signals off or "flashing" the signals 3 times ?!?! Arrrggh !!
- Some LCD screen functions don't operate as expected with certain options installed. Finding out about them is like a treasure hunt. What fun !
OK, let's get to the main event... my driving impressions:
So, let's throw out the cons about usability or human engineering on both cars for this discussion. No car is perfect. Let's just deal with how the cars feel, how they respond to input, how much feedback they give etc.
The CGT and 458 Speciale are, obviously, two very different interpretations of what it is to drive at speed. They do share several some wonderful traits together such as:
- Naturally aspirated engine sounds at high RPM's that turn men into little boys and adults in general into squealing (or profusely sweating) passengers.
- Nearly equal amounts of HP and torque.
- They both are on a much higher plain of control and speed and everything else that makes them supercars.
- They both make you smile when you get out. (But one I venture, makes me smile more.)
Let's return to how the cars feel at speed. The CGT has this insane ability to make you feel locked in and sitting in an ingot of steel, no matter what the speed. In fact, the faster you go, the more stable the car (specifically the steering) feels. With the 458 S, except for dead slow, when the steering gets a bit heavy (really no biggie... don't be a p---y)... it feels light on it's feet, like a ballerina up on it's toes, ready to launch in any direction, instantly faster or slower at any time.
Which feeling do I prefer? While I liked how confident the CGT made me feel at any speed, I truly love how sharper the responses are at all times in the 458 S. One downside, changing lanes whilst accelerating. In the CGT, flipping lanes feels more like switching tracks in a locomotive. You are on rails and it almost feels like the car knows where you want it to end up and it just gets you there safe and sound (read: Lots of downforce). With the 458 S, that "lightness on it's feet" (read: Less downforce) can end up forcing the driver to have to concentrate a bit more to make sure you precisely give the needed inputs to the steering and power and brake and not one centimeter more, or else you might find the car slightly out of line at the end of the lane change, which is OK, but I almost wish I didn't have to work so hard. It's not a race!
The biggest difference to me is how the cars rotate into a turn. In the CGT, it really feels like a dumbbell (I don't mean stupid...just weight distribution), where the weight of the front and the weight of the rear do NOT intercept right in the middle but instead, overlap each other, making the rotational center of the car feel less than exact and the weights might just keep going after you stop spinning them if you reach the limit of the tires. In the 458 S, I swear I jumped for joy when I realized that the rotation is right down the middle of my seat, which is exactly where you want it. So the 458 S feels absolutely perfect on turn-in. I told my daughter (who did the squeal thing the first time I floored it) that it feels like the body of the car completely disappears and it's just you strapped onto an engine, with a steering wheel... almost like a pocket rocket bike.
What this boils down to for me is something like "Which would you rather have, a race car that has been slowed down with slightly more downforce than needed to let you relax at N/10ths on the road (CGT) or a race car that is still a race car (458 S) and is happiest on a race track and would really love it if you took some damn racing lessons, and stop being a p---y!"
Now, add to this mix the cons about the CGT at the limit. When on a road and whipping into a corner with zero runoff, the last thing you need is this niggling feeling that if the car let's go, it might snap too quickly for all but a current active racer to catch in time... so you back off, to keep the smile on your face, and you go a little slower, which seems counter productive to really enjoying your new supercar.
So for me, it all comes down to how I feel when I get out of my car. How much do I want to jump up and down and yell "AGAIN!!" For me, that happens much more often in the 458 S. It's the whole enchilada... it drives as good as it looks. Yes, it has a learning curve but stuff it, man up or shut up, life is tough, wear a helmet. Damn the torpedoes, this car rocks my world and I can't wait to go somewhere to really explore it's limits safely. In the meantime, I love what I got, a potent weapon that is a masterful piece of engineering and exterior design. Yes, I still have to figure out how to change the presets on the radio... but then again, the CGT had a Nav display that looks like an Atari 2600 game of Pong
In the final analysis, for me, I can drive the 458 S as slowly or as quickly as I want. It's ready to do whatever my bidding is. It's surprisingly superior at slow speeds or low RPM... the CGT is really not a happy camper below 3k RPM... kind of rattles along and pleads with you to get with the program. Although clutchless paddle shifters don't allow me to be quite as smooth when approaching a stop light (no clutch to slip gently out of gear, and yanking both paddles to enter neutral offers a bit of a jerk to your approach), in the end, I prefer what the 458 S offers on the upside compared to the down.
I do think that the 458 S feels a bit more "fragile" without quite as much of that "come on and beat me" feeling of the CGT... as if the 458 S was built to last the length of an F1 race, and the CGT being built to last 24 hours at La Mans (which come to think of it, makes perfect sense given their development histories
So, am I happy with my change in seat? Completely 100%. The CGT is an incredible car. For a driver like me.... my decision to "get with the future... dude" was the right one. Love my Speciale.

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/458-speciale-vs-cgt-owners-impressions.488224/

 

Investor money aside I'd rather have the Speciale.

 

Excepting in the case where you need to use it on a regular basis... constantly hurting the car will require more than a paint touch up

 

Do you live off-road or something? If the car would be so often be damaged without a lift, it would come standard. It's not like Ferrari is knowingly selling a car they believe will get constantly damaged. It's highly unlikely you'll damage anything other than paint without a lift.

 

Worth keeping in mind what kind of tires you put on a CGT. I have no doubt in my mind that the latest tires on a CGT would drastically change the handling characteristics and improve the performance.

 

Very steep long driveway with a peak on it that rubs the bottom of the car between the axles, I have smoothed it out as much as possible but a lot of contours, not off-road;that's the everyday part

otherwise, there are many intersections out in the Texas hill country where the crossroad that goes over a large highway that is regularly re-paved has a large height difference and when you go straight across, well, you better have the car up. Not to mention other roads where there are extreme angles, all adds up for me, have always needed a lift and on cars that are low/long nose w/o a lift, I actually adjust the shocks up on their perch a few turns to get a little more rise.

I am attaching an image to show what is out there when I go on drives, this is not an actual picture, I could get one next time, just the same, for me a lift is critical, if the (exotic) car does not have a lift and does not have adjustable shocks, forget it
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I own all three, FGT, 458 Speciale and the CGT. FGT is a great cruiser, with dirt cheap maintenance cost but it doesn't offer anywhere near the same level of visceral driving feedback as the CGT. Beautiful to look at and drives very much like an european sports car. The 458 Speciale makes you feel nimble on the street, but when you track it, the brake overheats and the typical Ferrari quirks appears very quickly.

CGT is very costly to maintain, as expected, it's carbon chassis car with race derived engine and clutch. What did you expect? I guess you were one of those guys who bought the CGT when it was dirt cheap and thought it was a 430/Gallardo level of maintenance cost. I have seen guys who buys an used Porsche Boxster for 20K and complaints about it when they take it for a $400 oil change.

Do you own a F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari? What is the maintenance like on those Ferrari supercars? Cheap?

 

Very accurate review of both cars!

I do find Ferrari's F1 transmission not as smooth as some of the latest Porsche PDKs on the GT2RS/GT3RS.

 

Love, love love the speciale....but I'd have to go CGT (investor money aside).

In reality...just have both

 

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0-60 in 3.0 sec
>200 mph top speed
60 msec shifting
La Ferrari brakes (in gold no less! )


Great times!

 

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2014-ferrari-458-speciale-5/

Well looks like my old speciale is for sale. Curious to see what it'll sell for with imminent pista deliveries

 

Here is a link to a Pista for sale in Europe.
https://www.autoscout24.com/offers/ferrari-488-gasoline-red-4927ff72-4e50-ef56-e053-e250040ade71?cldtidx=4

 

Here is another one:

https://www.autoscout24.com/offers/ferrari-488-pista-2018-nuevo-modelo-v8-720-ps-gasoline-red-4be6b7cf-7aa6-48a6-ad2e-0dda0365e174?cldtidx=13

 

egad.....that second one is $700 EUROS....

 

Beautiful. Which owner were you? If you specced it, well done.
I had a conversation with my dealer vaguely about Speciales. Sales guy mentioned the value is in low miles. They just traded one with not low but not 10k miles for around 300k. With 10k miles he thought this one was below the current bid wholesale but retail ?

Never know with BaT. This one is consigned as well at BJ MOtors outside Houston. There’s that added cost.

My guess is this one is rnm.


Market still too high


ScottS


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Didn’t you only own that car for 2 weeks? If you sold it to a dealership then of course it’s for sale.

 

I love the Speciale. It is the next car on my list, but I want to have enough money to fully retire first. Until then I'm sticking with the Italia.

However, this talk of investor money seems crazy. Sure, short term wins exist, but no one is holding these cars for ten years instead of holding a Vanguard fund, are they? Trying to make money off of appreciating cars long term seems like a fun way to lose money. Even if you think you are winning, compare your buy/sell to VTSAX over the same ownership period.

Even if I manged to sell my 458 for what I paid for it after driving it for ten years, I'll still be out 200k+ in opportunity cost. I wouldn't have "driven it for free" as a YouTuber might claim. (but hey, I think it is worth it!)

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It works as an argument to the wife as to why you need to buy and keep this car LOL


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Haha. Awesome.

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Just an observation, here in the UK it seems Speciale’s are on the rise. I think this may be down to the almost impossible task of making the 488 Pista list, and individuals prospecting a sale of the Pista before delivery at between £400k to £500k is dragging Speciale prices up. ie if you can’t get a Pista (which most of us loyal Ferrari owners can’t) then have the next best thing a Speciale, or maybe the Speciale is better in the first place (that’s for others to debate NA vs turbo) Prices on Speciale’s up circa £20k in last 6 months...first and foremost, just enjoy what may possibly be the greatest driving machine ever made....can’t put a price on that...


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As more cars are driven more miles, and fewer desirable-spec cars are available with low miles, I think prices will slowly creep back up. My personal observation lately has been that the cars commanding stronger prices are desirable spec cars with low miles - but there are fewer out there, which seems to also be creating a slightly larger gap between high-mileage undesirable spec cars and low-mileage desirable spec cars. (All standard disclaimers relative to possible future impacts of global economic fluctuations apply.)