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Speciale Market

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by DM1, Jan 21, 2018.

  1. watt

    watt Formula 3

    Jun 17, 2004
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    Giuseppe T Hemingway
    Updated observations from the fchat crewe? About 32 Speciales advertised today, some seem to be sitting since February at least. Prives from 369 to 419 asked. Has the Speciale market gone soft? Views appreciated
     
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  3. obbob

    obbob Formula Junior

    Aug 14, 2017
    761
    I wouldn't say soft, but I would say there is an element of variance right now. I know a couple of F-Chatters have reported to pay $380K for their Speciale's last month.

    One thing I noticed is that well optioned and tastefully specced cars sell significantly faster. The majority of the ones I've seen that sat are either strangely optioned or bare bones.

    Good example is the matte red one at Boardwalk. I believe it just had its anniversary of sitting on their showroom floor.
    Another one is the red one in San Francisco. It literally only has cosmetic options in the form of Alcantara and the NART stripe. Is there anyone on this forum that's willing to pay more money for your mid engine super car because the headliner is in alcantara?
     
  4. PininfarinaSF

    PininfarinaSF Karting
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  5. Shack

    Shack Formula 3
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    Agreed - Here Rosso Corsa / NART move very quickly while other colors struggle for top $
     
  6. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    Mar 18, 2014
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    Nuno
    With the Pista rolling out of production line, I expect to see a drop in Speciale's prices. I still think they'll plateau at a higher ground than special editions before it, due to the NA factor. Many people traded their 458s for 488s, F12s for the 812, and now I expect the same.

    I think we'll witness a softening, before it creeps back up in value again. Very few Speciales in my market, which is also highly affected by taxes and thus conceals the true value of a car. But the Speciale is indeed very... Special. And collectible. I don't disqualify a car from being collectible on units made alone: there's also demand.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
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  8. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula 3
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    #181 JTSE30, Apr 23, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2018
    Sorry, I don't mean to crash this party, but, I have some input here...

    at least on cargurus for past 12 months or so 20-25 is average for sale and today it is 26 (not including Aperta's)

    A little research will bear out things are not always as they seem...

    I find many cars "listed" for sale for long periods of time have actually been bought & then re-listed for sale immediately with the "new owner' not taking possession...

    So, some of the Speciale's listed are actually, what's the word for it, "checkbox" cars, meaning, they are being sold with the apparent desire to simply "accumulate points" with Ferrari (and probably the dealer too) to "move up" in order to get a car they want (i.e. Pista, or the 812-LM, whatever it will be named) or the LaFerrari replacement...

    here are some examples...

    ~~~~~~~~

    https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/l-Used-Ferrari-458-Italia-d2064#listing=137433245

    listed for an incredible 783 days, but, this car is being driven:

    https://www.carfax.com/VehicleHistory/p/Report.cfx?vin=ZFF75VFA2E0201579&partner=VAS_0

    Something funny here, cargurus listing and dealer's website both refer to this car having 300 miles on the odometer, but, that has not been true in years, it is registered in Montana and its registration is being updated multiple times per year...

    ~~~~~~~~

    https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/l-Used-Ferrari-458-Italia-d2064#listing=183483327

    listed for 249 days, cargurus shows 2 owners, carfax shows 3:

    https://www.carfax.com/VehicleHistory/p/Report.cfx?vin=ZFF75VFA6F0205586&partner=VAS_0

    someone 'bought it' July 2017 and it was back for sale August 2017 (probably never left the showroom)

    btw, I notice cars without suspension lifter do not sell as well...

    ~~~~~~~

    https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/l-Used-Ferrari-458-Italia-d2064#listing=195766494

    listed for 108 days, cargurus shows 2 owners, carfax shows 3:

    https://www.carfax.com/VehicleHistory/p/Report.cfx?vin=ZFF75VFA4F0212861&partner=VAS_0

    owner # 3 purchased in June 2017, and then back for sale 6 months later, but, then, over 300 miles were added to the odometer after being listed for sale...that's curious isn't it...

    ~~~~~~~

    https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/l-Used-Ferrari-458-Italia-d2064#listing=197597603

    listed for 108 days, cargurus shows 3 owners, carfax shows 4:

    https://www.carfax.com/VehicleHistory/p/Report.cfx?vin=ZFF75VFA3F0205108&partner=VAS_0

    Owner 2: 1 month, Owner 3: 10 months, Owner 4: 13 months...all owners very low mileage driven by each

    ~~~~~~~

    https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/l-Used-Ferrari-458-Italia-d2064#listing=199150005

    listed 68 days, but actually, according to carfax, over 150 days and carfax shows 2 owners, cargurus shows 3...

    https://www.carfax.com/VehicleHistory/p/Report.cfx?partner=DLR_3&vin=ZFF75VFA1F0211649

    but, notice, after it is listed for sale the mileage continues to creep up...something funny going on there..I wonder if someone bought it but did not title it as it shows being listed for sale twice by second owner...
    ~~~~~~~

    Some cars are priced particularly high, as result, no reason for anyone to buy as others are available at far less cost...for instance:

    https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/l-Used-Ferrari-458-Italia-d2064#listing=185296133

    listed for $429,800

    https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/l-Used-Ferrari-458-Italia-d2064#listing=192890549

    was listed at 398, now 425 and was recently on ebay with a buy price of 435...most likely a consignment car

    ...anyway, I thought I would throw a wrench into the works here, not all is as it seems
     
  9. watt

    watt Formula 3

    Jun 17, 2004
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    Giuseppe T Hemingway
    #182 watt, Apr 24, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2018
    the Towbin car you list is now at 399 ask.... vs the heartstopping 289 in your link...


    https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/l-Used-Ferrari-458-Italia-d2064#listing=197597603

    listed for 108 days, cargurus shows 3 owners, carfax shows 4:

    https://www.carfax.com/VehicleHistory/p/Report.cfx?vin=ZFF75VFA3F0205108&partner=VAS_0

    Owner 2: 1 month, Owner 3: 10 months, Owner 4: 13 months...all owners very low mileage driven by each

    Do you have an answer to these machinations, beyond check box? Almost seems like a multi dealer price support effort......
     
  10. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula 3
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    Oct 1, 2004
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    Austin TX
    Funny,

    Yesterday I reached out to Towbin and they immediately recognized the improbable pricing that was being shown and corrected it :)

    I see no effort for dealers to support any pricing level, in fact, quite the opposite.

    Many of the cars are consigned so various owners set their expectations (and you can tell those that are not ready to sell just yet by having very high asking prices) and those that are not on consignment, well, I understand the dealers are very willing, to, you know, deal ! But, they have to work within their costs.

    The Towbin car, quite a reasonable price given its mileage and color choice. Actually may be a little bit lower of an asking price than a year ago, then again, you have to account for the car coming off original 3-year warranty late last year. To pick up an extension on the factory warranty, no longer possible as it is out of time, would of been about 10K. And, considering Ferrari recommends changing the tires every 3 years regardless of mileage, well, there's a little more change that will be spent sometime in the near future...

    Otherwise, a great price!
     
  11. obbob

    obbob Formula Junior

    Aug 14, 2017
    761

    I don't think it has anything to do with some conspiracy with dealers. Just think about all the owners that never drive their cars. Also why would dealers pass cars off to each other? Ultimately they are competitors, and transportation isn't cheap....

    Also, why would Ferrari corporate care about the sales of used cars? It's not like they get any money from it.
    Further I also met the previous owner of the Speciale at Towbin. Def was not a dealer.

    Finally, CarFax can be very inaccurate, especially with owners. One of my family member's car has 2 owners on its CarFax, but has actually only ever been owned by her from new. Probably has something to do with her buying out her lease or moving to a new state.
     
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  13. DM1

    DM1 Formula 3
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    Nov 9, 2006
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    Did the market on the Speciales really cool off or what. I’ve had mine for sale at Scottsdale Ferrari for about two months and very little activity on it.
     
  14. hanz

    hanz Karting
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    Dec 24, 2014
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    looks like it, ive had mine for sale for the last 2 months here in the UK (LHD in a RHD market) and also little activity
     
  15. dustman

    dustman F1 Veteran
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    Jun 12, 2007
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    There’s been a steady supply for a good 6-9 months now in USA. People do tend to move on to the newest flavor.
    Prices seem to be 10% above msrp still, butnperhaps that’s what needs adjusting, much like the gt3 rs market for 15/16 cars. Huge glut on market and newer models rolling out.
     
  16. Eilig

    Eilig F1 Rookie
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    Depends on the spec and miles as well. Buyers are cherry picking only those with the best spec and lowest miles.
     
  17. obbob

    obbob Formula Junior

    Aug 14, 2017
    761
    Used exotic car market in general is cooling off. 2015-2016 had a unjustified bubble. 991.1 GT3 RS is probably the perfect example of the exotic car bubble. GT3 RS came out during the peak, ADM was around $75K-$100K on average. Now they are worth MSRP with delivery miles, and most are sitting for months.

    Compare that with the 991.2 GT3 RS, which is currently the hottest car. Even then, .2 GT3 RS are only asking for $50K ADM at most.
     
  18. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie
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    Yup. There are still .1 RS sitting with delivery miles asking $250K LOL

    Dummies should have flipped em when they had the chance. Now no one wants a .1 RS because the new ones are easy to come by and even the normal GT3 is better than the old RS.
     
  19. dustman

    dustman F1 Veteran
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    IDK...I am a buyer of the .1RS when they fall farther into $150-175k territory vs the newer GT3.

    I had a dealer offer me a "great deal" on the new RS at +$100k. Had a good laugh.
     
  20. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie
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    Surely the manual option on a new GT3 makes up for the RS factor, no?
     
  21. dustman

    dustman F1 Veteran
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    I dont want to own or drive the manual, so for me no. For many they will think it's awesome and going to appreciate in value.
     
  22. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I was hoping the slow exotic market would speed up with the advent of springtime, but it doesn't seem to have happened.
     
  23. 'Trust'

    'Trust' Karting

    Jul 31, 2012
    213
    Completely different really. I'd liken that to the concept of a Italia or 430 with race seats would make up for the Speciale or Scud factor. The whole experience is different even GT3 to GT3RS
     
  24. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie
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    Heh, well, a manual is a bit more involving that sitting in race seats. But in any case, I can understand why someone wouldn't want a manual. I love auto mode in modern exotics. There's nothing terribly enjoyable about driving a manual in any sort of traffic or trying to use a phone and needing to be rowing gears without being that guy who is at 8K RPM in a residential zone.
     
  25. QueueCumber

    QueueCumber Formula Junior
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    Having had the 458 Italia, Speciale, and now Spider, I don't know if I think the experience was profoundly different between the Speciale and the others. I actually enjoy the Spider more than I ever enjoyed the Speciale. Perhaps if I had the Aperta I would have felt different about the comparison. Albeit, I don't take my cars on the track. But, .1 second between the Italia and Speciale defies human perception in acceleration. Handling may be a different issue, but like I said, I don't track them, which is probably why I love the Spider more than the other two.

    From a rolling start, how much difference is really left between any of these models in a straight line that is provably perceptible? I may launch control them a handful of times during ownership, just to make sure it works, but otherwise I never use it.

    I guess it doesn't help that my TTS Cab is stage 3 right now. It makes the straight line differences between the 458s seem meaningless. That difference will grow even larger when I get it back next week with the Stage 4 and methanol.

    P.S. I was extremely glad to trade the GT4 and get back into a 458. A year with manual and clutch reminded me why I stopped buying manual and clutch after the Lotus Elise and Exige S240. Driving the GT4 became a chore instead of fun after awhile, and I increasingly reached for the TTS even though I felt like I should be spending some time in the GT4. I'm very happy now with the TTS and 458 combo. Beast mode in a straight line and road trip comfort with the modded TTS, and handling finesse and engine note heaven with the 458.
     
  26. 'Trust'

    'Trust' Karting

    Jul 31, 2012
    213
    I think most reputable automotive journalists would disagree with you there, however given you don't track them, I doubt you'd see much of a difference on the road, other than a bit more road noise and higher price tag.

    Coming from a 2000whp 6 speed UGR TTG, I understand the speed comparison, and that's not at all the function of the Speciale for me.
     
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  27. dustman

    dustman F1 Veteran
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    I had all 3 as well, and I find the spider to be the best. But all 3 are brilliant in their own place. The look of the Speciale alone is worth it.
    But the open top spider for drama is unrivaled. Except by Aperta (not at those price though!)
     
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  28. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula 3
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    I find the car at Scottsdale to be a unique blend of contrasts. Carbon wheel caps and nolders but standard (yellow) shields and regular front lower intakes (rather than those also being carbon) and inside, no lifter, and many interior colors, black rev counter, white stitching, otherwise standard black/red interior. And the price of 419K probably is too high, might move at that price, but also when I see a price that high without sub-1000 miles or a full carbon setup including engine bay it usually indicates someone not all that interested in selling but if it does, great (would be the thinking). As a comparison, Towbin up in Vegas has a stunning 2015 Argento (Silver) with 1950 miles (but also no lifter and carbon wheel caps and std shields but also no stripe which is an expensive option) and it is priced at 389K and they will deal. I wonder how much work is involved in switching the shields to be the carbon version, I think that would make for an enhanced outward appearance vis-a-vis the carbon wheel caps (which are definitely the right choice for your car and its stripes).

    And, for additional reference, Motorcars Washington has a stunning black 2014 with carbon shields and exterior mirrors and engine bay, lifter and 2200 or so miles and has been for sale at 419K for over 2 years (I think that is my reference point for a car priced too high and if it sells, great) and best I can tell they are firm on their price. That car might eventually sell at that price, but maybe not. The dealer does drive the car so miles are being added, slowly but still.

    Also, a bit hard to tell, but it looks like you are the second owner and have put less than 200 miles on the car (i.e. since March 2017). I think many of the today's buyers are looking for a car to drive and enjoy so might be more focus on looking for a car that suites their tastes and preferences (a having the suspension lifter is rather important for many) rather than a car to just hold and store and admire.

    But, maybe you are comparing your car to that at Evan Paul motorcars, very similar car, but theirs is sub-1000 miles and priced the same, in fact, they had listed it at 399K and then moved it up to 419K a couple weeks ago. So, watch their car, see where it goes. But having your car at a Ferrari dealer is a better choice because of Ferrari's superior long-term financing options that are only available via Ferrari dealers.
     

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